Mohammed, (yes, that really is his name), opens with …
I would like to remind you that in the 1970′s the scientists of the day were seriously concerned that we were about to enter an ice age, and less than 30 years later they are now convinced Earth is about to turn into a desert.
Yes indeed, it is the rather common argument often made by Christians,that science is always changing, but my holy book remains constant.
The first rebuttal, comes from Dave (not me) …
Therein lies the difference between science and religion. Science adjusts itself to data and admits when things have either changed or are wrong. When a religion, or its teachings, is wrong it creates an industry called apologetics to explain them away. Religion is for arrogant people who can’t admit to being wrong.
Mohammed’s reply is one in which he not only sticks with his relative stance, but also expands it to include morality (yes, another rehashed Christian argument, and yes this really is his spelling, but cut him a bit of slack, English is not his native language)
I wondor an athiest still belive in right and wron
///When a religion, or its teachings, is wrong it creates anindustry called apologetics to explain them away.///
Prove it About Quran Since 1400 years
The rebuttal is as follows and comes from several contributers…
Looking at the antics of the religious, for example stoning, murder, homophobia, misogynist behavior, bombing, intolerance,etc … we have the exact same question.
“The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment.”
—Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz, supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, 1993We do know right from wrong, Muhammed, which is why we don’t need a book claiming to be divine to tell us right from wrong. We know right from wrong so well we can see the terrible things written in your holy book and know that they are wrong.
As for proving the Qu’ran is wrong from 1400 years ago, well there’s David’s example and there’s also the fact that the Qu’ran states that bones form and then are covered in flesh as the embryo grows in the womb. That’s just plain wrong.
What then follows is essentially a bit of a gish gallop. Clearly a nerve has been hit and so Mohammed feels compelled to attempt a verbose rebuttal, perhaps more motivated by the desire to keep his belief intact. I’ll not inflict it all upon you, but will instead pull out his key arguments followed by the responses …
Earth is Flate Is Not written into Quran , IM SUPOSED TO FOLOW QURAN not dead Decayd Saudi spream
Sadly not true, unfortunately it is indeed written in the quran in many places. If you wish to be truly honest with yourself, you can find it all written up and explained in detail at the following link. The quote from the Saudi scholar is not unique, many other Islamic scholars agree, the quran says the earth is flat, to deny this is to argue with these learned islamic scholars, and not just with non believers.
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur’an
If you feel that the discussion at the above page is incorrect, it is a wiki, you are quite free to edit and correct it.
Muslim A Truer One Must i Call, Never exploded atomic bomb, Intolarance Doesnt belongs to any faith, It is most fiercely Practiced by Hitler And Ur Most beloved Faithed Rurssia
Both Hitler and Stalin were political fanatics who demanded obedience and slaughtered any who refused to bow to them, they illustrate what happens when an irrational belief (in both cases a political one) takes hold.
Fanatics demanding you bow to their views only … does that remind you of anything?
As for intolerance, you claim it has no place, but sadly the reality is that Islam is demonstrated to be very intolerant. To illustrate that point, the penalty for Apostasy, as agreed upon by the majority of Islamic scholars is death. When simply doubting merits a death sentence, then that truly is intolerance of the highest order and truly immoral.
// ///homophobia, misogynist behaviour/// Look What Ur Fathers and Fore Fathers Said About Muhammad. And Celebrate ur lie acuse in their //
(he then includes links and quotes from various folks saying how wonderful Islam is)
The problem here is that you are not addressing the argument, these are simply quotes from some saying how nice Islam is. Opinions are not what matters, facts matter.
Islam is indeed homophobia, and like most belief systems is hostile to gay people. The belief is that this stance is moral, but is in fact immoral. The Islamic regime in Iran has slaughtered thousands of innocent people who have committed no crime, they were murdered on the sole basis that were are gay. They are not alone is carrying out such belief motivated murder. If you wish to address this point, then you need to explain why murdering people for being gay is moral.
Islam is also highly misogynist, woman are deemed inferior, in both practice and also in law. This is also immoral. If you wish to address this point then you need to explain why the testimony of two women is equivalent to that of one man in an Islamic court
// Child, listen, with islam, Nothing Compares ;* //
I agree … when you consider the degree of stoning, homophobia, misogynist behavior, bombing, intolerance, and murder on an almost industrial scale … Nothing Compares, Islam has been a disaster for humanity and has resulted in the suppression of human progress and basic human decency within every society and culture that embraces it … no exceptions. If I’m wrong about that, then please do name just one nation where this is not true.
Was that the end of the dialogue? Not really, that is simply where we it got to as I wrote this. It will most probably play out as follows …
- Perhaps there will be no further discussion, and the points raised will not just be ignored but will be forgotten. Belief is like that, the believers will latch on to the things that confirms the belief, and happily discard the things that don’t. This is called confirmation bias.
- There might also be the usual, “Ah but you have taken that out of context” claim, or the, “Ah but that is not what it really means” card.
- The justification for ignoring the points that rebut the claims may also be justified within his own mind with quotes from a religious text … we are of the light, they are in darkness … they are deaf and blind … yada yada etc… and the fact that he has no reply can simply be ignored on the basis that Allah is all knowing, but I a humble believer am simply being tested to see if I will remain true to the faith … etc…
In the end, what becomes clear is that the arguments presented are not the real reasons people believe at all. When you demolish the claims, the belief remains intact, they are arguments that are presented in order to convert you, and not the actual reasons for belief. They simply want to hook you into taking the first step, a step that involves getting you into their micro-community where all around will persistently tell you these things are all true, and offer to accept you as one of them if you will only just believe a few things. Once you are invested in a small way, then the next step to believing some of the more ridiculous things becomes possible … in an Islamic context that would be … “Evolution is a Lie”, “Jinns (as in Aladdin) are real” … “being gay is wrong” … “woman are indeed inferior and need to cover up” etc…
As for the actual apologetics, no nothing new or credible, just the same tired old recycled arguments we hear from Christians. What we do of course see is the manner in which the psychological trick that this belief deploys takes root. Most beliefs that thrive have evolved over time the means to hook into human psychology, and those that dominate are very good at doing this, it tells us a great deal about how such beliefs thrive. With Islam we find not just the usual belief in the supernatural, but also a glue composed of fear and a demand to obey and submit.
Those that don’t will burn in hell. Those that do and then change their minds merit death. Yes really, the official penalty for becoming an ex-Muslim is death, that is not a fringe belief, the majority of Islamic scholars hold that belief.
In the end, none of the crazy apologetic claims presented tell us anything at all about the things that are actually true. It is perhaps understandable why many are attracted to beliefs, they delivery answers (which unfortunately are not the right answers), they also give meaning and motivation, yet in a meaningless universe we are free to craft our own meaning and motivation that is truly grounded in reality and not founded upon myths nor driven by fear or delusions.
What is of course encouraging is that more and more are putting aside these religious toys that stem from our evolutionary childhood and are no longer frozen in place by fear, slowly slowly we are growing up and maturing.