As proof that ‘God’ has poured out his spirit, there is a manifestation known as “Speaking in Tongues”. Those seeing it for the first time sometimes find it to be a bit creepy or bizarre, especially if they don’t know what is going on. It usually happens during times of open prayer within Pentecostal churches or other similar types of groups with a Charismatic leaning. Sometimes one individual will appear to loudly break out into a prayer or song in what sounds like a foreign language, but not any language ever heard before. There is also a variation in which the entire group will all do this together; except of course for those not in the know or not ‘gifted’ yet.
Normally when considering religion, concepts such as “spirit” are vague, immeasurable and meaningless, but here is something solid that we can actually measure and determine if there is anything significant happening. Over the years there has been a lot of serious independent scientific research of this specific practise. One very good example is the long and detailed study carried out back in the early 1970’s by the famous Professor of Linguistics, William J Samarin. From all around the world he gathered and recorded many samples of “Speaking in Tongues”. All this data was then put through an extensive analysis over a period of five years. His conclusions were as follows:
- While speaking in tongues does appear at first to resemble human language, that was only on the surface.
- The actual stream of speech was not organised and there was no existing relationship between units of speech and concepts.
- The speakers might believe it to be a real language, but it was totally meaningless
[Samarin, William J. (1972). Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism. New York: Macmillan]
Note that this is not just a blog opinion, its peer reviewed research carried out over many years by a highly qualified open-minded linguist. Speaking-in-tongues is nothing but empty babbling by devoted believers who have deluded themselves into thinking it to be a sign of the Holy Spirit. I should know; I used to be a practitioner myself at one time and truly did believe in the reality of it, but realise now that I was motivated by my desire to blend in and was only fooling myself.
If you dig a bit deeper and consider the history of it all, you find that the modern practise as we see it today is not all that old, it dates back to about 1906 in Los Angeles. Having first started in a revival there, it has since then spread in a viral like manner both geographically around the globe, and also chronologically on to each successive generation. Modern practitioners claim that what they are doing is exactly the same as the experience described within the Book of Acts (2:1-13), however one huge discrepancy is that the story within Book of Acts describes recognised languages from all around the Roman Empire being spoken. In stark contrast, nobody understands the modern mindless babbling.
What is even more fascinating is that the modern manifestation is a lot more widespread then most might appreciate. Other non-Christian religious groups also practise it. Felicitas Goodman, a Hungarian anthropologist compared it with recordings of rituals from Japan, Indonesia, Africa and Borneo and concluded that there was no distinction, it truly is universal and quite easily crosses religious divides. [Goodman, Felicitas D. (1972). Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.]
Finally, just to prove the point that there is no sky-magic involved and that this is just a learned behaviour, there was a study carried out with a group of 60 non-believing undergraduates. 20% could accomplish it after listening to only a 60 second sample and about 70% could succeed with some moderate training. [Spanos, Nicholas P.; Cross, Wendy P.; Lepage, Mark; Coristine, Marjorie (February 1986). “Glossolalia as learned behavior: An experimental demonstration”. Journal of Abnormal Psychology 95]
The Bible states in 1 Cor 14.22 that “tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not”. Well, this non-believer hasnow weighed and measured it all and found it to be mindless babbling. The only sign that this gives is that the believers who practise this are delusional. (I include my past self in that last sentence).
If you are still a believer, and are starting to have doubts, then you might be interested in chatting with me to understand why I am not longer a believer (I promise a friendly discussion) – contact me at skeptic [at] skeptical-science.com (forgive the cryptic email, its to avoid the bots auto- scraping the email address and spamming me)
To those who still believe and have reached here with the, “But I know its real” thought still intact; well, that’s exactly how I felt. What you have to realise is that you are in the grip of a very powerful psychological trick. Before you move on, pause and carefully consider what you have read; I’m not presenting you with an alternative opinion, but rather with hard solid scientific proof that it is not real.
the long ending of mark is not accepted by majority of scholars..
Nobody knows for sure what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is yet people are out there everyday just trying to survive
Rachel, with due respect, how do you know all this? Is it just your theory? If so, you might preface your statements with, “It is my opinion that…”, or did someone else tell you this? If so, who and what are their credentials or sources? Do you have an ET spirit guide who answers questions for you? If so, say so. This movement of truth can only move forward with verifiable information. None of this resonates with me and it is my feeling (see how I did that?) that this is a pagan ritual directed by Satan in order to get between Christians and God. I could be wrong, but you have not convinced me of it.
I know 100% that vein babbling is not the gift of the spirit and speaking in tongues is God‘s word in Jesus is the word of God clearly states that they were speaking in languages that were around them the Romans, the Greek, the Hebrews and such God is not an author of confusion And that just confuses people and turns them off and they walk in and hear somebody going blah blah blah
Hi you say Jesus came to you personally but does anyone know what Jesus looks like? Does the Bible not say the devil can transform himself to Angel of light ??
Just a note beware of this unknown
Hi
Just a thought you mentioned Acts 2 38, if you go back a few verses the the gift of the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues. However this referral to speaking different earthly languages why get to verse 2 38 and it’s now a different speaking in tongues than earthly languages?
I remember going to a wedding between a “completed Jew” (the groom had been born into a Jewish family, but had become a believer) & a Christian woman. After they had exchanged vows there was a time of prayer. Someone (a member of this 100-member humble church) erupted into a long prayer. No translation… A little uncomfortable, since the groom had plenty of his Jewish family. After the service, more than one of his Jewish relatives were asking who had taught Hebrew in the church. No one had. The person who had spoken in tongues prayed the Hebrew prayer, in full, for that “holiday”, or holy date in the Jewish calendar. So don’t tell me speaking in tongues is nonsense. Unless you don’t believe in the Bible, then that’s how you should preface this entire silly article.
This sounds amazing.
We can validate all this because you have the details. Let’s get the ball rolling on an investigation into this please.
Oh but to “know Him” Jesus Christ our Lord and savior. It is the plan of salvation as written in Acts 2:38 —Then Peter said unto them repent and be baptized EVERYONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues is a gift from God. The unknown tongue that Jesus gives is not only a promise and part of salvation, it is also a direct language between you and God that no one need understand. It is supernatural. On another note. The devil himself believes in the Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues) so one should be very careful how they disregard this gift of God. Satan can and will confuse people into thinking they can chant a tongue. When one gets the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, they will never ever doubt it again, unless they began to let satan lead them astray. Speaking in tongues is not a practiced or learned emotion. It is not a hypnotism. It is very real. Also the Bible says “all sin is forgiven except for blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 12:31-32 – Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Read More…)
Luke 12:10 – And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
If one does not know about tongues why venture into something that could be demonic as other false religions also speak in tongues
Hey Rachel! I appreciate the information, I am able to ‘speak in tongues’ and have had no idea what it’s all about. I was prayed over a few years ago and the ability just came from that experience. I’ve done research to try to find out more about it, but other than religious reference I wasn’t able to find much. I did come across light language which seems similar if not the same but still was left wondering what’s the point. Occasionally I will do it just during meditation and prayer but have not understood any benefits It brought if any. I really resonated with your explanation that it brings our body in harmony through the energy. Would love to know where you found this explanation so I can learn more and start exploring the benefits of this practice.
ha ha no just alter your brain wave pattern. Think Delta/Theta not Alpha/Beta!
I’m not sure how you only did it twice? Once it is activated it remains? Like riding a bike. It is an energetic language, its purpose is to heal and regulate the body. It is not using ‘words in the sense’ of semantics because its purpose is to bypass that part of the brain and create flow. Processing words would slow it down. Each organ emits a harmonic sound but its not saying ‘I’m beating irregularly, its sound changes when at dis-ease and when the brain picks up that sound (now out of tune) it signals to other places in the body that can send energy to it. We are God (consciousness) and inside of us is the cent re of the universe. What we think and speak will become. We are consciousness experiencing life in a physical reality, which we create every moment.
No. It is an energetic language its purpose to transmit healing and regulation to our body and possibly can activate another’s too.
Just a note here. It has been scientifically proven now that it’s not the same as a mantra meditation as that lights up the front lobar section which demands focus and control. Lets say Mantra is more alpha brain wave and energetic language is more Theta.
Hi, I realise this is an old post but thought I would leave a few notes from a balanced perspective of science vs spiritual.
I was 16 when I ‘received speaking in tongues’ at a Pentecostal type church but within a hidden cult like structure. “there way was the only way etc’. We were taught ‘speaking in tongues’ was proof you had received holy spirit. Then on a Sunday service we used to deliver the gifts. ‘Gift of Tongues with Gift of Prophecy.’
One person would feel called to speak in tongues in front of the group. Then another was anointed to interpret it (The prophecy). I believe the fervor of belief manifested this because I did the interpretation a couple of time in my late teens and it was a very strange experience. My whole body was hot and the words that came out were not premeditated. It was like they were being forced out of my mouth, Normally they were about something to do with the end of the world, doom gloom and motivation to continue being loyal etc. or worse about backsliding (when you leave the church and are cut off from everyone forever and are told you will go to hell etc.)
I did eventually leave after 8 years of misery, depression, anxiety, doom and gloom….
It took years to recover. I refused to speak tongues ever again. Last year ( age 50) with no religious attachments, walking along the beach I began singing and realised I was singing in a weird language’. I didn’t associate with tongues as wasn’t the same experience. This has developed and I can sing and talk a multitude of different I call them energetic sounds. Some sound like old Tibetan chants, others like italian opera, there are Germanic, Chinese and the strangest ones are those that sound like computers (beeps and whirrs and chirps) or ocean/wind noises. I can also hear these sounds in water, in trees and rocks.
So I am now in deep research over what I believe are ‘energetic languages sounds’ that we have innately inside of us. Call it our essence, our unique sound imprint. Everything is energy. Energy has a vibration, a sound, a tune. Did you know every organ, every cell in our body creates a harmonic sound? Its how our body communicates with itself, to heal and regulate.
There are lots of scientific studies now showing that our brain shows increases in relaxation and altered brain wave patterns ( such as Delta) when we use this energetic language. It shuts off our mind and the parts that want to explain everything in words and increases our parietal lobe activity which increases our sense of self relating to oneness with our environment and the rest of the world.
In the beginning was the ‘word’ and the word was with God and the word was God. The interpretation of ‘word’ is actually ‘Shim’ which is a voiceless sibilant, basically a sound without using the vocal chords in other words ‘breath’. Breath is consciousness.
According to Jung (1964), glossolalia occurs in cases of predominance of the unconscious, prior to assimilation of the content into consciousness, i.e. it represents the example of invasion of the unconscious contents into the consciousness prior to integration of the personality . Such assimilation represents, in fact, the solution (solve) of repressed emotional complex, which was kept away (far) from consciousness by the repressing mechanisms as unsatisfactory (unacceptable). It is manifested in changed behavior (conduct) and a line (chain) of wrong actions (acts) in communication with surroundings that increase insecurity and fear (in the circle). Resolving the suppressed emotional complex the forces of depression are unburdened and the subjective feeling of being relieved, calm and secure occurs.
The answer I believe is and has always been inside of us….not out there. Not because of a church or religion. Not because you have been good, or bad. I am because I am. All is energy, all has a vibration, from a blade of grass to a giant tree. We are one with it all and it with us. We have a symbiotic relationship with everything and everyone. I hope this helps someone.
Thanks for sharing this Julie. I also feel it is just like mantra meditation
If you can speak in tongues do you understand what you speaking? if not have you tried
“For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says” (1 Corinthians 14:13)
Hi Anonymous
Having the gift of tongues now what have you done with the gift? What has changed in your life. Are you assured of your salvation or are you relying on your speaking as proof that you are saved.
When I received tongues I had thought they were weird and didn’t really want the gift but one night in my room Jesus came with eyes of flames and fire all around him and baptised me in holy spirit. I received th holy spirit and tongues, it happened and no one taught me, his holy spirit did it. If u don’t believe in tongues thats because you’ve never had the gift – and your trying to debate things of a spiritual nature with your logic and head knowledge lacking heart and deep revelation. I don’t even go to church anymore. But I am reconciled to God and pray everyday and live my life following christ. And doing the will of the father.
This article is something Satan would write. Deceptive. I pray in Jesus name the eyes of your understanding be opened. Bless
For those who speak in tongues, do they understand each other? Can they carry on conversations in tongues?
My name is Moe and I speak in tongues as well. I think it’s an earthly language. Please email me [email protected]
Dave, I came across this article while searching for more information regarding speaking in tongues. So far my search as turnrd up a lot, but mostly tied to Chrisianity. I can “talk in tongues” it is a long story about how this came to be. Anyway, I do know that penticostal churches practices it, I have read all the bible scriptures about it. I was looking for more and objective view of it. It is a real thing, I can do it. I have no desire to try to convince anyone else that its real. You said that you used to believe in it, does that mean you were able to do it also? But then stop, or where you pretending that you were able to in order to fit in. I just want to find out what it is, and other peoples experience with doing it. Seperate from the religious aspect of it.
Hi Alison,
Today I can speak in tongues. I’m also not religious.
At a conference where I was giving a talk about speaking in tongues, I explained to all those attending how to do this. We then gave it a go and the vast majority were soon speaking in tongues.
The human religious experience is basically emotional. You can tap into that by bypassing the speech centre of the brain – no beliefs in anything at all required.
The experience is quite real and not in any way supernatural.
Many thanks for reaching out
Thank You Samuel
Were is Ros comment?
Ross,,,thank you,,I agree with what your saying
Therefore, the gift of tongues in ACTS is speaking in a language a person does not know in order to minister to someone who does speak that language.
speaking in tongues is valuable to the one hearing God’s message in his or her own language, but it is useless to everyone else unless it is interpreted/translated.
Hi where does it say in the bible that speaking in tongues
reduce stress in people
psychologically, physically, and spiritually fulfilling
Feel a sense of sweet release and inner peace
We live by faith not by emotions, experiences or feelings…..these change but Gods word does not
WHAT WAS THE ACTUAL REASON FOR THE GIFT OF TONGUES WAS IT NOT FOR
Was a sign for the unbeliever
Was to worship God
Was for a person speaking only one language but understood by many various foreign languages
Was one hearing God’s message in his or her own language
“For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says” (1 Corinthians 14:13)
It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)
Hi Samuel Arbelo
what are you doing with the gift you received? How has it helped you? Have you received any OTHER giftS that you have also asked AND prayed for for such as Healing or other gifts? Does scripture say EVERYONE receives the speaking of tongues?
You are right there are false evil tongues
there are also learnt behaviour of tongues
there are experiences of tongues but which tongue has been received?
Feelings, experiences, emotions change BUT Gods word does not change
What do you understand “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” means?
Interesting subject
Hi Anonymous
just a few comments I have used your comments and answered in capital letters to make it easier to differentiate your comments from mine
studies have been done , with brain scans , and speaking in tongues does not activate the speech areas of the brain, showing us that it is not a made up socially learned behavior , DO ALL OTHER RELIGIONS THAT ALSO SPEAK IN TONGUES EXACTLY LIKE THE CHRISTIANS DO AND TONGUES DOES NOT ACTIVATE THE SPEECH AREAS IN THEIR AS WELL BRIAN ? DO HAVE THEY ALSO GOT GODS GIFT???????? it comes from the HUMAN SPIRIT , first generated by God’s Spirit. once you have the gift , it never goes away even if you back slide and even become atheist. IF YOU SAY YOU HAVE THE GIFT AND THAT THE GIFT PROVES THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY THEN LETS LOOK AT MARK 16 BELOW SPIRIT Some people have the ability to fake and copy it, because of peer pressure , But When You Have The Real Gift You will Know it. The “its not real tongues like in acts “…comes from not studying the subject deep enough . Paul spoke in tongues that No Man knows….in acts, there was two miracles happening , speaking and hearing. Read the story in Acts , with out any preconceived ideas then read 1st cor, on the subject
MARK 16
7
But go, tell his disciples and Peter, `He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.'”
8
Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
9
[1] When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.
10
She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping.
11
When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
12
Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.
13
These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.
14
Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
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And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
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Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.
IF ONE READS THE CHAPTER WHO WERE THE UNBELIEVERS “THE APOSTLES “
WHAT WAS THE COMMAND IN VERSE 15 “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. ARE YOU (WE) DOING THAT?
VERSE 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe:….THESE SIGNS WILL ONLY HAPPEN IF THEY BELIEVED WHY BECAUSE THE APOSTLES WERE THE UNBELIEVERS THEY NOW HAD TO BELIEVE SO THAT THESE SIGNS WOULD ACCOMPANY THEM
NOW VERSES 17 AND 18
17 In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
HERE THEY RECEIVED ALL THESE GIFTS NOT ONE OR THE OTHER. SO IF YOU SAY YOU SPEAK IN TONGUES THEN YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLACE YOUR HANDS ON THE SICK AND THEY WILL GET HEALED.
THEREFORE WHEN THE DISCIPLES WENT OUT WHAT HAPPENED THEY HEALED EVERYONE, WITH THESE GIFTS. NOT LIKE TODAY, PEOPLE SAY THEY HAVE THE GIFT BUT CAN NOT HEAL ANYONE, OR ONLY SEE A HEALING ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR. IF YOU HAVE THE GIFT THEN YOU SHOULD BE OUT THERE GOING INTO THE WHOLE WORLD HEALING PEOPLE INSTANTLY AS WELL,.
WHO WERE TOLD TO GO AND WAIT FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE APOSTLES
acts 4 And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”…
studies have been done , with brain scans , and speaking in tongues does not activate the speech areas of the brain, showing us that it is not a made up socially learned behavior , it comes from the HUMAN SPIRIT , first generated by God’s Spirit. once you have the gift , it never goes away even if you back slide and even become atheist. Some people have the ability to fake and copy it, because of peer pressure , But When You Have The Real Gift You will Know it. The “its not real tongues like in acts “…comes from not studying the subject deep enough . Paul spoke in tongues that No Man knows….in acts, there was two miracles happening , speaking and hearing. Read the story in Acts , with out any preconceived ideas then read 1st cor, on the subject
That’s the same as a baby making noises-it’s clearly whatever noises and sounds you can think of, as you go, and that’s it.
Hi great that you recieved speaking in tongues. Please let us know what we’re the first words that you received in tongues which you got in Arabic.
What messages are you receiving in tongues. Sjjow us a few interpretation of what God is giving you in speaking in tongues. Share a few messages from God
Thank you
Preach it brotha. Praise God!
Woohoo!
Hello everyone! I received this gift of tongues. Discovered that I was speaking Arabic. I also wrote in arabic. A language I’ve never even thought about learning. Not sure how much proof you need beyond that. ♀️ If there’s a way I can prove I never learned it on own, let me know. I tried learning Japanese once… didn’t really stick to it. It’s not easy to follow God. No one ever claims it’s easy. It is super easy though, to ignore God and to write it all off as brainwash. This is very easy to do. Easy to go on and do what you want, make as much money as you can, follow all your desires and ambitions. But living a life following Jesus Christ? It is quite a feat. You won’t recognize yourself after following Him for a time… If you follow Him long enough, it won’t be easy to go back. ;) I’m not a preacher or a scholar or any kinda expert. But I have gotten enough proof already, that God isn’t a dream. Or a figment. Or a psychologically induced dysphoria. There is nothing out there that compares to the peace of God. I’m not here to brag… only to try speaking the unpopular opinion. God doesn’t choose favorites… if a believer is claiming so or being self righteous, this is not the way of God. Anyone and everyone can receive gifts from God. But have you gotten a present from someone you’ve never met before? Probably not. So maybe it’s about time to meet your maker. Before it’s too late.
I received a real language… perhaps your conclusions are outdated? I really hope you don’t go the easy way. It’ll feel good at times, you’ll feel lost at other times, like something is missing. Then you’ll find ways to feel good again. Back n forth, on the cusp of falling too far… or perhaps an ongoing walk through the bottom-most rung. I’m only saying these things, cause I’ve endured these things. And I’ve also endured this unbelievable thing you doubt today. Doesn’t matter if you’ve “attended church before”. You will never know of what I speak, until you approach God and find out yourself. That’s the best scientific test you can perform! Go and test what all these crazy people have done. Approach God, with faith, at least for a few minutes, ask of Him what you need in order to be satisfied with Him. Just ask. Nobody will know if you try. You’ll be surprised. Faith is the key tho. Don’t do it just to prove me wrong lol.
The Word of God, aka the bible, is one of the ways you may hear Him. Though He is everywhere, and will do what He must in order to greet you. But you have to approach Him first.
“Can I talk to you? Can we be friends? I want to talk to you. I want to tell you by God. God be upon you, God all of us. I tell you, by God. God bless you, I will ransom you. ”
My name is Ro-Z.
I don’t dispute scriptural claims on this topic. But I do suspect that many modern Christians do the tongues bit out of their own wish to feel that they are part of the group, and maybe they are more spiritually evolved than others. I say this from personal experience.
Speaking in a particular manner is a foundational element of how one identifies with a social group. Examples abound. Consider recent politics. Or consider rap “music”, or any language associated with a social group such as doctors, lawyers, even hillbilly rednecks. Yes, even hillbilly rednecks. You want to fit into a liberal social group? Just use the accepted phraseology. You want to get that redneck to move his truck so you can get out of the parking lot? Just use his type of language and accent.
Great commentary! Many studies have been done by psychologists that seem to suggest that engaging in non-cognitive non-language utterance (i.e. “speaking in tongues”) does actually reduce stress in people. It’s very much akin to chanting, deep meditation/prayer, etc.
For those that use it, it is very psychologically, physically, and spiritually fulfilling. It’s almost like primal screaming. When people practice ‘tongues’, they feel a sense of sweet release and inner peace, in that virtually all stress can be gone after the experience.
I grew up in the church……….ore moderate denominations in my earlier years and later in the evangelical movement during the 70’s and very early 80’s. While visiting family in the Bay Area, they were all assigned to the choir section of the Kathryn Kuhlman Revival. Being a singer myself, i was willing to join the choir for a night. I was 14. Very impressionable period of life. Anyways, I started speaking in tongues that night. (No, I do not think I was special. I just joined in the gibberish. No harm, now foul.) Anyway, I continued using this little behavior for years in the church. I knew it was a beautiful way of letting go.
In my late 20’s, while getting my MA in counseling, I left the church. It no longer served the same purpose that it had in my younger years. But, I remember bringing up the point of talking in tongues in my Lifespan Development class. I mentioned the possibility of it being a practice to help the brain “let go” of control, reducing the chemicals associated with stress. There was a lot of nodding. This was 1991.
Fast forward to last night. I was having a hard time relaxing to go to sleep last night. I couldn’t for the life of me settle down. I remembered an Alan Watts audio where he discussed the Episcopalian Church being up in arms (this was taped in the late 60’s early 70’s) because there was a wild little talking in tongues trend taking place within the Holy bowels of the church. “Don’t they know who we are? We are refined and in control of our religious practice!) Alan’s response was, “I think it’s quite refreshing to see perfectly, normal people losing their minds with glossolalia. So, if it is good enough for Alan, it’s good enough for me. Laying there, in my cushy Costco sheets, I very quietly started “speaking in tongues.” Instantly, I relaxed and at peace. It was amazing. The tongues practice redirects the energy from the stress related centers of my brain, to a much more peaceful area. It felt great. Later in the night when I awoke, I started all over again and was able to go back to sleep. (I’m a chronic insomniac.) When I awoke this morning, I felt rested and refreshed.
Personally, I think anyone can do it. It seems a bit narcissistic when people brag about getting their prayer language from God. Aren’t you special now? snicker Sure, God is in the business of having favorites. Sounds just like God. Come on people!! Get over yourselves. You are not special. But, you are just as wonderful as everyone else. Embrace that.
So, in closing…………..I support conscious, unconscious gibberish. Just be careful of who you share your practice with. It’s still not generally acceptable but it is therapeutic.
Insightful and fascinating Julie. Many thanks for sharing that, it is greatly appreciated.
Do you not believe that science at its core is what you say, that the personal beliefs of those scientists have no influence on there outcomes? I think science has shown the effects personal bias can have on even peer reviewed studies. Just look at so many medical studies that okayed drugs that were very obviously bad. Still to this day. Opiates still being prescribed on mass for example would be a bi product this bias. It’s very obvious how scientifically bad these are yet scientists with their personal and financial biases have said the oppposite for decades. Science is not pro or anti God but people are and scientist are people and therefore fallible to personal bias (I.e. being pro or anti God)
Wow. Just wow. So to be able to “Speak in tongues” I have to extensively brainwash myself? No thanks.
I spoke in tongues twice as a teenager in the early 80’s. It’s an uncontrollable action that science cannot disprove!
20 years later I remembered a few words and decided to try to translate them online. Basically what I had said two decades earlier was, “God is great”. Now (in my early 50’s) I can’t remember the mysterious words that came out of my mouth.
All I can do is laugh at scientists who try to say “it’s not a real language”. They come to conclusions to justify their own disbelief and expect people to accept it as facts.
Scientists really need to keep their anti God views to themselves!
Science is neither pro-god nor anti god. The way science works is this. An observation of something is made. People then formulate an idea that explains it. They then test that idea to find out if it is or is not wrong. If it is not wrong then we have a provisional understanding until more evidence or a better testable idea emerges.
So far there is no verification that tongues is anything more than a human emotional response. This is neither a pro-god nor an anti-god stance. It is simply an honest conclusion when all the available evidence is analysed and tested. If you have better verifiable and independently tested evidence, then please do feel free to share it, publish it and shout about it, because it would be a truly fascinating discovery.
I my self was curious about speaking in Tongues, but those who don’t understand of course is not within the spirit of God. Reread Acts and dissect every word.. You cant just take classes to be a part of this, just to know if it’s true. I really get a kick out of people who try to LEARN or SPEAK a celestial language. Yes you can learn to speak different languages but not celestial. In order to really be gifted with (speaking in tongues) The language of tongues is a SPIRITUAL GIFT, and it comes FROM the HOLY SPIRIT.
Key word is ( It comes from the Holy Spirit) not a teacher or a professor. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions, but if you truly want the gift you must submit yourself to GOD and he’ll take care of the rest. When I first heard someone speaking in tongues I was confused but also intrigued.
I started to attend services and submitted myself for God, and one of my prayers that I wanted answered was ( The Gift of speaking in tongues) and of course everything is in Gods timing. I prayed for months and months for this gift.. One day I prayed in my room.. I definitely felt gods presence, I started to proclaim his name and focused on worshiping him… Once I felt the Holy Spirit of god.. he take over …I started to praise him out loud until my English praise transformed to a fireball of tongues.
My spirit or my soul started to speak in tongues.. a unknown language I’ve never studied for or practiced.. I know it came from God, Because when you submit yourself to God he will answer your prayers and your souls desire as well as the gift of discernment of knowing what is from god or what is not.
I consciously knew what was happening but the spirit took over,, I was listening to each word that came out my mouth. Once I received that amazing blessing I did my homework and looked up the words I spoke, also asked God for wisdom
AB•BA Aramaic language meaning Father
Allah : is the Arabic word for God in Abrahamic religion
Sometimes it might just be our soul communicating with God speaking angelic languages, that not human nor angels or demons understand but just God.
(1 Corinthians 14 :: NIV. Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.)
So if you can’t interpret the languages, then it’s just not ment for us to.. because it’s our souls that’s communicating with God himself.
It might be a msg for the church ! Or a Particular msg for someone who truly needs it.
I can personally say Speaking in tongues is real. Not because I studied it or tried to Learn it by teachers,, but because I actually had a connection with God.. a personal spiritual connection. I can definitely beat if you ask these experts if they ever had a fully spiritual connection with God, meaning if they ( confessed there sins.. Worshiping God in a regular basis.. reading Gods word .. fully submitting themselves into gods presence ) I’m sure they never have experienced any of it.
People might say I go to church every Sunday or I pray.. but there’s so much to it then just a Sunday brunch..people are more focus on science and will you give answers that will draw you away from god.
Now if you believe in God .. your underestimating his power, I dare you or anyone reading this to have a deep spiritual connection with god.. if your writing about it and say it’s not true your still In search of finding the truth.
Just how there are people of God there is also people that worship evil,, that being said not everyone that says there holy are holy. I’ve seen supernatural Demonic possession, where they have spoken in tongues. That’s why we always must pray for the discernment of the Holy Spirit to know what is from God.
But that’s another subject, it gets deeper. But other then that this is my personal experience my testimony on how I use to think like you, but when you fully submit yourself God will prove to you that his gifts are real.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable
Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. … And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
I have no doubt about this at all, and I can truly say that, My god is real as well as his promise of his Holy Spirit and his gifts. I’m presenting the truth the light and the way.. not what men say…but what God has Promised to us. The enemy will always try to find a way to gear you the wrong way.
Think about it...again I dare you to have that spiritual encounter with God and you will see the truth. Ask and you shall receive !!
Matthew 7:7-8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Thanks so much for sharing.
@Marrtin… the miracle is in both, depending upon the biblical story. Peters story is different.
what you’ve said is different from the arguement. The point is no one understands anyone in today’s act of speaking in tongues. Completely different from Peter speaking 3k understanding. Oh by the way, some understood Peter’s language. Many thinks the miracle is only in speaking. What’s the point of speaking if no one understands it?
SO TRUE
Tongues ( always a human language) was always a miraculous occurrence. The miracle was not in the speaking, but in the hearing. Peter preached in one language and 3000 were saved and they each heard in their own language .
One thing I wonder, just examining the neurological studies on this, is something that occurs to me regarding times when I try to talk in my sleep while dreaming. There are some cases in the dream state where people talk absolutely coherently. There are other cases where the sense of a need to talk is very strong within the dream, but the brain is not able to access the motors of speech. The result is a sense of frustration, and sometimes the frustration itself wakes the dreamer up in the middle of trying to talk. What comes out when trying to speak while the motor control of speech is either shut down or altered can sound, sometimes, very, very strange. I have also heard that the effect of stroke in the brain can create a kind of disconnection between the intention of speech and what is actually vocalized.
The reason I find this pertinent is that I wonder, if it possible that the experience of speaking in tongues has, as its prerequisite, some kind of movement into state of worship or intense focus on the religious experience, that brings on the dissociation between the area of the brain that sends out the intentions of speech, and that part of the brain and voice where the motors of speech actually operate. In the case of frustration in the dream state, there is often some kind of fear-based drive to warn or cry out in the dream, hence the dysphoria of that specific kind of experience. Likewise with stroke.
But if the experience of speaking in tongues is based on a different kind of pre-condition, namely expression of belief, desire to make spiritual connection, and that sort of thing which occurs in the context of a spiritual methodology of worship, much of which may be reinforced by direction of one’s optimism in the context of group worship, for example, that might explain why the unhinging of the different areas involved in the neurology and motor control of speech doesn’t feel disconnected, and even maybe explains why it often feels good. Though, I am thinking that the good feeling already exists as something of a prerequisite to the dissociation.
I also think that the same prerequisite dissociation of normally linked brain functions exhibits, albeit in a much different way – through listening in this case – in hypnosis, and may also explain out-of-body experiences, which I wonder about, given the brain’s vast potential to use recall to recreate the details necessary for a realistic simulation of out-of-body movement.
Most fascinating to me is this: a neurological explanation does not negate the experience of intense faith, or of the sense of spiritual experiences such as hypnosis, seances, out-of-body experiences, and so forth. In fact, if the brain is provisional of a spiritual experience and interpretation of life, it is, as I see it, profound unto itself. Add to that the overwhelming suggestion of data, that the human being is not only predisposed to experience life on spiritual terms, but tends to have a tough time navigating life without such things. I would be curious to know if anyone has ever made a study to find out details about the distribution of people as it relates to a extreme lack of what we would call a “supernatural” experience of life, to the other end of the bell curve containing those who regularly interact with life as a supernatural experience.
1 Cor. 14 is concerned with speaking in tongues in church and not with any private prayer language. “Church” or “in church” is mentioned eight times throughout the chapter. The whole chapter is concerned with Paul admonishing the Corinthians on orderly worship. Paul plainly prohibits anyone from speaking in tongues in church unless there is an interpreter (v. 28), because without an interpreter, “…how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.” (v. 9b).
Paul also dismisses praying in tongues in church in vv. 14-15. He points out that if he were to pray in a tongue, his mind would be unfruitful. Clearly this is not good, because immediately he asks, “What am I to do?” Then he gives the answer: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.” Paul is making the point that praying with one’s mind and spirit is preferable to praying with one’s spirit only. And he is obviously referring to praying in church because in v. 16 he says, “Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying.” And in v. 17 he says “…the other person is not being built up.” Obviously someone besides the tongues speaker is present, so Paul is obviously telling the Corinthians not to pray in tongues in church (unless someone interprets, as he has already said in v. 5 and will say again in v. 27). As I said, this entire chapter is devoted to instructions for orderly worship.
But what about private prayer? Well, Jesus himself gave us very clear instructions for private prayer, and they don’t include speaking in tongues. In fact, he cautions against it. “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matt. 6:7-8) These are Jesus’s instructions for private prayer, in your room with the door shut (v. 6). Clearly we don’t need to use a private prayer language to convey our deepest, innermost needs to God, because He knows what they are even before we say anything. We have that from Jesus himself.
But there may be times when, in our weakness, we truly do not know how to pray. Don’t worry, God has us covered. “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” (Rom. 8:26-27) This is the Holy Spirit interceding for us, not our own spirits interceding for us, for how could our spirit intercede for itself? Paul is building on the thoughts in the previous verses, where he says “…we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons…” (v. 23) And of course we know from Hebrews that Jesus also intercedes for us. “Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” (Heb. 7:25)
Nowhere in scripture are we commanded to speak in tongues, and nowhere are we commanded to seek an emotional “high.” Our theology should be based on the Word of God, not on our experiences or someone else’s stories about their experiences.
So whether you believe the gift of tongues died out in the first century or whether you believe it is still active, you shouldn’t ever speak in tongues in church unless there is someone present with the gift of interpretation, and you shouldn’t ever heap up empty phrases in your private prayers. My advice: Stick to English when you pray, and do as much listening as you do talking.
the word” tongue” in greek (glōssē). then chapter 14:10 the word (phōnōn) which means “of languages”. funny because if you read verse before 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible(eusēmon – meaning “well indicated” or significant), how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. now if you read the chapter paul keeps using the word (oikodomei) which translates to edify,build up, structure, confirm. like building up a house. paul pairs this word edify(oikodomei) with tongues(glōssē) and prophesy(prophēteia) which can also mean speaking under inspiration,or communicating revealed truth.
from this and basic understanding of communication. he wants people to build up there speech either it be in there head or coming out there mouth. its a running dialog with a purpose to edify oneself. you can talk for hours but unless you can get to a point its pointless. the point is to get to a point. a thesis a conclution. if you come to a conclusion why and how did you come to that conclusion? you can give a commandment but if people ask you why and you cant explain why, they look at you like you do things without question. but if you just talk bible speak and there is no conclution or point you are getting to, people will look at you like your a zealot or a crazy person just babbling. tongues is for the unbeliever, from my experience you cant tell an athiest to follow the commandments, he will ask you why? and you better have a why or they will think your stupid and affirm there ideas. but if your edifying your self in tongues moving towards conclusions then you are not debating or commanding them you are dialoging with them where they participate and move towards the same natural truth you do. and you are both edified. paul said he would rather give 5 clear words in instruction, then speak 10,000 words in tongues.
with tongues you can indeed say you are dialoging and pondering the mysteries, unknowns of the world and universe. if you are pondering those unknown things you are connecting pieces and trying to put them together. you could find it out, you might not get that answer. if you are lucky you will get a revelation and everything will become clear and those mysteries will no longer be unknown. you will get it. but now you have to communicate it and explain why? once you have edified your speech then you can prophesy (prophēteia)communicating revealed truth. paul wants everyone to try and find the truth speak in tongues, but he would rather everyone (prophēteia)communicating revealed truth.
Also if you have a speech or concept in your head you could write a speech, then translate it in other languages. You could translate word for word to convey the massage. But obviously the order of words might be jumbled. Like how spanish can be spoken backwards in english in ways. Same with some phrases in greek to english. So they could be speaking a message in another lauguage but the order of the words and the lauguage it could sound like how yoda would speak. So you could write a message use the key words and concepts but depending on the lauguage and the order of words it could sound backwards in parts like how yoda would speak. So thus some people thinking they were drunk. also maybe/most likely the dialect was not perfect like a foreigner speaking with his thick accent in your lauguage.
Also the greek were master logician they had “Socratic questioning” and held critical thinking in the highest of regards to philosophy and finding the truth. This was for debates to disarm the sophist. Who would use emotion and tricks in order to win debates. The sophist did not care about truth but only about winning with rhetoric. This was highly despised by the greeks and anyone who used these tactics would have been torn apart in the debate arena. Thus why paul would of wanted his congregation to edify there tongue. He wanted thinkers who could talk what they were thinking in a clear efficient manner. And these greeks would of naturally known of Socrates, Aristotle, plato’s, advanced methods of critical thinking. Which many of the Christians originally were before converting.
It is soooooo much easier and comforting to be an atheist and an existentialist…! (which, btw, i am).
https://youtu.be/NZbQBajYnEc
I wonder how can you trust isolates studies which by no means are or can be conclusive.
You just got crisis of faith and then left it – nothing new. Then you became radical sceptic ie faithless – nothing new, but wrong still.
Putting aside the ABC link to a news item, and going directly to the Penn state university study itself, what exactly is it you think that this establishes?
– Sub questions to help: your heart beats, but you don’t consciously do this, is the fact that your heart beats like this beyond your conscious control supernatural?
– You can and do learn to do things automatically, for example at a football match some people respond and express emotions subconsciously by standing and yelling in joy as their team wins, is this supernatural?
What leads you to conclude that anything supernatural is going on?
Is faith a reliable way to reach conclusions that are true?
The Bible states in 1 Cor 14.22 that “tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not”.
Hi there! “I am not who I am, but who I am not,” I’m a workman! In tongues I can tell u ..I understand in more and less in knowing..was where I realised today’s language was not mis-interpreted, it is us beings!..letters do not lie, but words do..
Hi there!
The one thing I understood was not to knowing anything as we can never predict, The Knowing Knowledge Is Claimed Only Of GOD..our CREATOR!..
There is more to life that i do not even know about for our understanding more of which is inner-selves deep with-in, there are few things there I gave to understanding of its controlling, But it was the seeking inner that grew out wisdom (IN NOT UNDERSTANDING IS NONE-SUCH THING just like our choices we choose not to UNDERSTAND..we do not give it that time to find..it’s all it is..TIME) ..but truthfully with today’s knowledge we will never know/understand the TRUTH in the hidden mysteries…Why? Because we all to selfish to not even try to understand the TRUTH..that is just how today has working our minds to auto..through selfishness! And what it is which today for brings us great pleasant to our eyes with it strengthening ..reason causing why most are not opened minded, needy eyes to believe it.
THE HIDDEN MYSTERIES..eyes will not find it, it is the whole(Holy) body that the heart gives that will to seek it..
Workman✌️
I have experienced the real power of the Holy Ghost while praying in tongues. I speak in tongues and I get direction for my life. I speak in tongues and get answers to stuff I didn’t previously know. It is God’s will for us to speak in tongues. Paul said that he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks mysteries and speaks unto the Lord.
Don’t be deceived, speaking in tongues is a gift from God which he wants us all to enjoy.
Do read the scientific benefits of speaking in tongues too
I have experienced the real power of the Holy Ghost while praying in tongues.
WHAT WAS THE REAL POWER DID YOU EXPERIENCE WHILE PRAYING IN TONGUES. HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU PRAYED FOR WAS ANSWERED AS YOU DID NOT KNOW WHAT YOU PRAYED FOR IN YOUR HEAVENLY LANGUAGE? I speak in tongues and I get direction for my life. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE FOR SPEAKING IN TONGUES, WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT SPEAKING IN TONGUES GIVES YOU DIRECTION IN LIFE?
I speak in tongues and get answers to stuff I didn’t previously know.
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE SPIRIT IS PRAYING, HOW CAN YOU GET ANSWERS? OR ARE YOU PRAYING WITH YOUR OWN SPIRIT AND YOUR OWN LANGUAGE?
It is God’s will for us to speak in tongues. IS IT? DO ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES? WHO WERE THE SIGN GIFTS FOR? HOW MANY TIMES DID SPEAKING IN TONGUES HAPPEN IN THE BOOK OF Acts AND WHO HAD TO BE PRESENT?
Paul said that he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks mysteries and speaks unto the Lord. PAUL SAID THAT
Don’t be deceived, speaking in tongues is a gift from God which he wants us all to enjoy.
IS TONGUES REALLY A GIFT FROM GOD THAT HE WANTS YOU TO ENJOY, DO YOU ENJOY SAYING THINGS THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND? WHAT IF YOU ARE SPEAKING OTHER TONGUES AND NOT GODS TONGUES? WAS TONGUES GIVEN FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT OR WAS IT A SIGN FOR THE UNBELIEVER??
Do read the scientific benefits of speaking in tongues too.
WHAT ARE THE SCIENTIFIC BENEFITS OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES?
It looks like I can get a copy of Samarin’s study at researchgate.net for $7.95 but I’m hesitant to get it when Google doesn’t seem to bring up anyone talking about it.
The speaking in other languages at Pentecost in Acts 2, and at the Gentile ‘Pentecost’ in Acts 10, was not the ‘gift of tongues,’ because concerning the gift of tongues, Paul said, “Do all speak with tongues?” (1 Cor. 12:30), meaning they don’t. But on Pentecost, “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues” (Acts 2:4); and at the Gentile ‘Pentecost,’ “the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word” (Acts 10:44). Acts 2 and 10 are the only ‘events’ in the Bible described as the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 1:4-5; 11:15-16).
The disciples didn’t receive the baptism of the Spirit in Acts 2 because they prayed. Jesus wanted the apostles to wait in Jerusalem because he knew he would give the Spirit on the feast of Pentecost, and it would be most profitable if the apostles were all together, but he was going to give the Spirit on schedule, “when the day of Pentecost was fully come” (Acts 2:1), regardless of what the apostles did. Yeshua fulfilled the Jewish feasts on the exact days they were being observed by the Jewish people: Unleavened Bread with his sinlessness body, Passover with his death as the Passover lamb, and Firstfruits with his being the first person resurrected; and the first three feasts required an absence of leaven, which represents sin. And Yeshua gave the indwelling Holy Spirit to make one body out of both Jews and Gentiles, on the exact day as scheduled per the feast of Pentecost, when two loaves of leavened bread were offered in the temple. “[After Passover] you shall number fifty days [Penta-cost, meaning fiftieth]; and you shall offer a new food offering to the Lord. You shall bring out of your houses two wave loaves … of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven,” Lev. 23:16-17.
From Acts 2 onward, every believer has been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Messiah the moment he’s justified (Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 12:13; Rom. 8:9-10); therefore it’s impossible to be baptized by the Spirit any time after the moment of justification, in contradiction to Pentecostal doctrine. And Acts 2 and 10 are the only times in the Bible where any outward manifestation ever accompanied Spirit baptism. Acts 2, because that’s when the indwelling Spirit was first given to the church; and Acts 10 because that’s the first time the Gentiles were baptized into the church, which was a very significant event (Acts 10-11). “[Messiah] has made both [Jews and Gentiles] one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us, … to make in himself of two [Jew and Gentile] one new man,” Eph. 2:14-15.
Acts 8 and 19 describe believers receiving the gifts of the Spirit sometime after justification and water baptism, by the laying on of the apostle’s hands. Acts 8 doesn’t explicitly say what Simon and the others saw as a result of the laying on of hands, but we ought to assume the same as in Acts 19, an exercise of spiritual gifts. Acts 8 makes it clear that anyone, like Phillip, can preach the gospel and bring people to justification; but one of the twelve apostles (including Paul, not Matthias) had to lay hands on a believer to give them a spiritual gift (Acts 8). That’s why Paul wanted to go to Rome, “that I may impart to you some spiritual gift” (Rom. 1:11).
When the last of the twelve apostles died, no more spiritual gifts were imparted; and when the last of the people who had received spiritual gifts died, no more spiritual gifts were exercised. Just as most of the miracles of the Old Testament were condensed into the first forty years of the existence of the nation of Israel created at the Exodus; likewise the miracles of the New Testament (after Messiah) were concentrated into the first forty years of the existence of the church created at Pentecost. Speaking in tongues in church meetings provided needed New Testament revelation before the New Testament was completed because “he that speaks in an unknown tongue … speaks ‘mysteries’” (1 Cor. 14:2), which in the Greek, doesn’t mean things hard to understand, but things previously unrevealed, i.e. another form of prophecy, but which also needed someone with the gift of interpretation to have any usefulness (1 Cor. 14).
Yes. The teaching of how to speak in tongues by churches, though well meaning, is not backed by biblical principles. The true evidence of God’s power is freedom from a lifestyle of sin, fear, and eternal damnation.
Speaking in tongues. UTTER. RUBBISH! Jesus did all the Holy Spirit gift stuff apart from speaking n interpretation of tongues.
Jesus had to die before he could send the Holy Spirit to live in us and build the Heavenly Church
Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism and never spoke in tongues
John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from birth. He did not speak in tongues.
Hi, I grew up Pentacostal but since leaving I have always wondered about speaking in tongues. I have seen things like what you discuss but I have also heard of/knew people who said they were able to suddenly speak real, established languages and I’m not sure how to explain it. Any thoughts?
There are numerous accounts in the tongues-speaking community of instances where a person supposedly heard someone speaking in tongues and it was perceived as the person’s native language, or someone recognized it as such-and-such a language. All instances of these are purely anecdotal. Virtually nothing is known about either party; the speaker or the ‘hearer’), nor is any specific details or information on what transpired given. I suspect many of these stories are told to bolster and promote the tongues experience within the tongue-speaking community. Such accounts essentially amount to hearsay with minimal detail. There are, unfortunately, no real documented cases of xenoglossy anywhere.
Hi Leah! I take it that u are a good person, especially for many personalities..I could be wrong, I get an understanding from your name says that Your emotions is what you depend or fall on…
I’m a workman, I’m speaking in tongue just by saying “Leah”…that’s what all said from your name..
It will be better if you said at the conclusion of your article that if we still believe, then fine for us instead of saying that we are in the grip of a powerful psychological trick. It will also be better if you just left people to their faith than trying so hard to discourage them from believing, because you’ve lost your way doesn’t mean everyone should follow your path.
IF ONE LEAVES PEOPLE TO THEOR OWN FAITH OR BELIEF COULD THIS NOT BE DANGEROUS. THAT’S WHY APOSTLE PAUL SAID IF ANY OTHER PERSON PREACHES ANOTHER GOSPEL THAN THE ONE I PREACH “BE HE ACCURSED.
THE TRUTH MUST BE REVEALED.
Hi, I believe that speaking in tongues is real and that a person speaks in tongues when their spirit wants to communicate with God, the Bible says whoever speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto man but unto God, if you keep reading, you’ll see where Paul said the mind doesn’t understand what the spirit says to God. When people speak in tongues each person has a distinct pattern which I think is the voice of each person’s spirit. I don’t think it’s nice if you come and tell people that they are babbling because some people are struggling with their Faith and relationship with God, their spirit is trying to communicate with God and they come and read your article, making things worse for them, making them think they are delusional. BTW God isn’t science, he’s far more greater so your solid scientific proof is for your scientific god.
It will be better if you said at the conclusion of your article that if we still believe, then fine for us instead of saying that we are in the grip of a powerful psychological trick. It will also be better if you just left people to their faith than trying so hard to discourage them from believing, because you’ve lost your way doesn’t mean everyone should follow your path.
I have a couple of questions …
– How did you determine that there is such a thing as “spirit”? (I get that you sincerely believe it, I’m not challenging that, I’m just curious to understand how you work out what is and is not real)
– When you deem me to be “Lost”, I believe if I can translate that correctly, what you are actually saying is that we simply have reached different conclusions … is that correct?
– How do you determine that your conclusions on the topic are correct, factual, and real?
-How come you exist as you not as me, who are you where did you come from, what makes people different, what makes people who they are?
-yes, we have reached different conclusions (not lost)
-i know I don’t have experiments to prove my point, but I know I have been through difficult times and pain and I know people who have survived things people commit suicide over, and I know the only thing that got us through it was the love of God. Talking to God brought happiness and hope that in the end, everything will be better.
Hi
If you say that when we speak in tongues ONLY God can understand us. Well is I speak in an earthly language and you do not understand it, then am I correct in saying that only God understands it as God knows all the earthly languages? You do not understand it.
If its a language only God understands, then why must it be interpreted? Is it for Satan to understand it or is a real earthly language that we just do not know?
Should one not tell people the TRUTH if they are being deceived in believing another Gospel?
You are not correct by saying only God understands the earthly language you speak but I don’t understand. To speak in tongues is real and it is to speak by the spirit.
and nobody say your tongues MUST be interpreted.
it is not an earthly language that we just do not know, all languages spoken currently on earth are learnt you can’t enter a church and say the people there that are speaking in tongues are all speaking distinct languages that we just don’t know. People who speak in tongues don’t know what they say, their minds are at rest that moment and their spirit is talking. It conveys their thought and needs to God directly, in a way they don’t know how to.
and I don’t think you really understand the topic and the different conclusions, so I suggest you read it again before you think that what your saying is the truth.
and I don’t get… another gospel? Are you a Christian?
You are not correct by saying only God understands the earthly language you speak but I don’t understand. To speak in tongues is real and it is to speak by the spirit. HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO ME ” HOW DO YOU WALK IN THE SPIRIT”?
and nobody say your tongues MUST be interpreted. WHAT DOES 1 CORINTHIANS 12 MEAN ? 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
it is not an earthly language that we just do not know, all languages spoken currently on earth are learnt you can’t enter a church and say the people there that are speaking in tongues are all speaking distinct languages that we just don’t know. People who speak in tongues don’t know what they say, their minds are at rest that moment and their spirit is talking. WERE IN THE WORD OF GOD DOES IT SAY THAT ONE THAT SPEAKS IN TONGUES THEIR MINDS ARE AT REST THAT MOMENT AND THEIR SPIRIT IS TALKING? WHO IS SPEAKING THEIR OWN SPIRIT OR THE HOLY SPIRIT? It conveys their thought and needs to God directly, in a way they don’t know how to. WERE IN THE WORD OF GOD DOES IT SAY THAT WE CONVEY OUR THOUGHTS AND NEEDS TO GOD DIRECTLY, IF ONE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE PRAYING. WHY DID JESUS GIVES US THE LORDS PRAY? WOULD SATAN BE ABLE TO HEAR THEIR PRAYS??
and I don’t think you really understand the topic and the different conclusions, so I suggest you read it again before you think that what your saying is the truth.
and I don’t get… another gospel? Are you a Christian? SAYING YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN, DOES NOT SAVE YOU. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
CAN I ASK YOU A FEW QUESTION?
Why do you want to speak in tongues? To please God or get closer to him?
Are tongue speakers more spiritual than the ones that do not have that gift?
HOW MANY TIMES DID THEY SPEAK IN TONGUES IN THE BIBLE? HOW MANY YEARS APART WAS IT?
Some understand praying in tongues to be a “secret code language” that prevents Satan and his demons from understanding our prayers and thereby gaining an advantage over us. This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons:
1) The New Testament consistently describes tongues as a human language. It is unlikely that Satan and his demons are unable to understand human languages.
2) The Bible records countless believers praying in their own language, out loud, with no concern of Satan intercepting the prayer. Even if Satan and/or his demons hear and understand the prayers we pray, they have absolutely no power to prevent God from answering the prayers according to His will. We know that God hears our prayers, and that fact makes it irrelevant whether Satan and his demons hear and understand our prayers.
What, then, is praying in tongues, and how is it different than speaking in tongues?
First Corinthians 14:13-17 indicates that praying in tongues is also to be interpreted. As a result, it seems that praying in tongues was offering a prayer to God. This prayer would minister to someone who spoke that language, but would also need to be interpreted so that the entire body could be edified.
This interpretation does not agree with those who view praying in tongues as a prayer language.
This alternate understanding can be summarized as follows: praying in tongues is a personal prayer language between a believer and God (1 Corinthians 13:1) that a believer uses to edify himself (1 Corinthians 14:4).
This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons:
1) How could praying in tongues be a private prayer language if it is to be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:13-17)?
2) How could praying in tongues be for self-edification when Scripture says that the spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church, not the self (1 Corinthians 12:7).
3) How can praying in tongues be a private prayer language if the gift of tongues is a “sign to unbelievers” (1 Corinthians 14:22)? 4) The Bible makes it clear that not everyone possesses the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:11, 28-30). How could tongues be a gift for self-edification if not every believer can possess it? Do we not all need to be edified?
IF ALL OTHER FALSE RELIGIONS THAT DO NOT WORSHIP JESUS ALSO, SPEAK THE SAME TONGUES AS CHRISTIANS DO. SHOULD WE NOT BE CAREFUL IN WHAT WE DO? COULD ONE BE CAUSING GOD??
What do we say, then, about the many Christians who have experienced praying in tongues and find it to be very personally edifying? First, we must base our faith and practice on Scripture, not experience. We must view our experiences in light of Scripture, not interpret Scripture in light of our experiences.
Lastly why are churches teaching people how to speak in tongues, prophecy and heal. I thought the gifts were from the Holy Spirit and the Spirit gave it to whom he felt AND NOT A LEARNT BEHAVIOR?
Yes, Speaking in tongues may also be speaking in earthly languages that were never learnt, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is a gift from God that your spirit uses to communicate with Him.
Why did Jesus teach us to pray, teach, communicate, heal …. in our own language ( nothing secret ) ?? i am sure that Satan could understand all heavenly languages.
If tongues had to be interpreted in the church, then satan could also know what was said????
When you say you are not a believer, do you mean in tongues or in Jesus Christ?
I strive to believe as many true things as possible and so I seek the best possible evidence. When it comes to the various supernatural claims then for these I do not find enough evidence to convince me.
Faith is the only evidence you need. Read Hebrews 11.
Given the observation that you can have faith in anything, any position at all, then how exactly is faith in something “evidence” for that something?
It’s like saying faith is the only proof you need that everything is fine (if you prayed about an issue) and when it’s the right time, what you asked God for will be provided. You can never fully understand God or His plans. (Isaiah 55:8-11). And I know sometimes and in some situations having faith in God may sound absurd but He knows what’s best.
You have faith in God, not in something and having faith in God is evidence that your prayers will be answered but at the right time because God knows what is best. I know sometimes (and in some situations) having faith in God may seem absurd, but God always knows what is best for us (Isaiah 55:8-11).
Thanks for your artical . I am a believer in the word of God and lately been questioning the gift of tongues being used in the church today. This babble, gibberish kind of tongue. From my early Christian life it has been around me and other believers have tried to push this on me and go as far as claiming if I don’t have this gift, then I am not filled with the Spirit. I believe now that this gift was used in the early church to manifest God to unbelievers and it was an actual language that people could understand if they were of a different speaking language where the truth of Christ was being preached. After the Bible was completed, this gift ceased. Now if course, the word of God can be translated in many languages all over the world. I am writing you to encourage you to keep the faith in God’s wonderful gift of salvation. Don’t let man’s interpretation of God’s will and whas fog your faith.
What Cheryl said: “I believe now that this gift was used in the early church to manifest God to unbelievers and it was an actual language that people could understand if they were of a different speaking language where the truth of Christ was being preached.”
What the Bible says: For he who speaks in a tongue DOES NOT SPEAK TO MEN but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:2
Who will you believe?
See the explanations below for a discussion on 1 Cor. 14:2 with respect to real language.
You’re sort of describing the classic scenario for ‘tongues’ – yes, you will hear a great deal of repetition; that’s very characteristic of ‘tongues speech’ – the repetition of syllables. It sounds a bit lyrical because, unlike English, the typical syllable structure is ‘open’, that is, the structure is ‘consonant-vowel-consonant-vowel, CVCVCV’, etc. This type of structure and the fact that the sounds being produced are the ones that require the least amount of physiological effort are what lend to the sometimes sing-song/lyrical quality to tongues speech.
An elevated level of stress can induce tongue-speech – it’s, in part, a stress reliever.
Tongues in most cultures/spiritual paths that use them are a tool for establishing a closer relationship with the divine. What you describe is rather typical of the phenomenon.
The “tongues experience” is real and for many it can be quite a powerful one, but the tongues themselves are entirely self-produced.
There’s really no such thing as real/false tongues – random free vocalization is random free vocalization; there’s nothing to fake.
I don’t know about the people you tested, but I do know I didn’t learn it. I can also hear a repetition sometimes as if it was a song as well as having inflections and being lyrical. I don’t do it much, and have been surprised that at a very stressful time when I intended to pray aloud in english, I was taken by surprise when tongues poured out instead. Also while speaking or praying, a well of emotion I was unprepared for or expected surfaces and it is like coming from some deep reserve within me.
When this occurs, there is a sensation of having connected and communicated with God. And since it’s God’s Spirit within, why wouldn’t it be universal and not limited to just Christians if He is God of all. To me that’s more evidence of the reality of tongues and of God. Furthermore, I suspect you never actually spoke, sang or prayed in real tongues, but false tongues you tried to emulate.
Hi Lisa,
I have a couple of questions if that’s OK with you.
Q1. How do you know that you did not simply pick it up naturally by being in the environment where it happens?
As an example of what I mean … if you hear me speak, then you will detect a distinct accent. It tells you immediately where I come from (or where I live). I did not learn this accent, or even make a conscious decision to acquire it. There are many things that we pickup like this … how we behave, how we choose to dress, the words we use, etc… so how do you eliminate this as an explanation?
Q2. What does the term “real tongues” mean and how does it differ from what you consider to be “false tongues”?
If indeed people can and do acquire the ability to speak in tongues quite naturally and as part of the process it invokes emotions and feelings, yet they also don’t actually believe in anything supernatural, or even hold any specific religious beliefs, then how do you differentiate between these categories? Is it in any way meaningful to prefix it with the words “real” or “fake”?
HI lisa
How did you get to know about speaking in tongues?
What made you want to speak in tongues?
Were you told that whoever believes can do what the apostles did Mark 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.” 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.…
IF YOU CAN SPEAK IN TONGUES THEN YOU CAN DO ALL THE ABOVE, HAVE YOU GOT THE GIFT OF HEALING? CAN YOU WALK INTO ANY HOSPITAL AND HEAL PEOPLE LIKE THE APOSTLES DID? IF NOT WHY NOT, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO ALL THAT JESUS SAID ONE CAN DO?
1 Coríntios 2:14-16
For the natural man is not able to take in the things of the Spirit of God: for they seem foolish to him, and he is not able to have knowledge of them, because such knowledge comes only through the Spirit. But he who has the Spirit, though judging all things, is himself judged by no one. For who has knowledge of the mind of the Lord, so as to be his teacher? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 14:22
“Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not”
Hi Dave
Who were the sign gifts for?
Exodus 4:7-9 Moses first SIGN FOR THE JEWS .. rod to serpent and hand to leper … 10 plagues leaving Egypt…. SIGN FOR THE JEWS and Greek require knowlwdge
was it not for the Jews? The nation of Israel always required a sign.
Mark 16: 14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who [d]believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[e] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Read the whole chapter ,,, who were the unbelievers? The Apostles themselves? Who had to believe that the sign gifts would happen? The Apostles
2 Corinthians 14 ….. for the SIGN GIFTS were for the unbelieving Jews,
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. SIGNS OF THE APOSTLES NOT OURS,
,,,,,,,
Hi Mario,
I have a question.
Countless numbers of people read the bible. As they do so they glean an understanding from that. We know that there is a vast diversity of conclusions given the vast diversity of beliefs that exist. This diversity of understanding is not just random, but often is by people who dedicate their lives to their specific variation of belief.
You have specific beliefs and will of course happily quote references for it, so my question is this. How do you know that your specific interpretation is correct?
I do of course understand that you believe it is, and of course I also understand that you are confident that it is. In a world where many will read the exact same texts and reach completely different conclusions, what is the mechanism you use to determine that your specific conclusions are the correct ones, and how do you verify that it is correct?
Dave
Hi Dave,
I have a question.
VERY GOOD QUESTION. I BELIEVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL REVEAL THE TRUTH OF GODS WORD AS YOU STUDY AND READ THE INSPIRED OF GOD YOURSELF AND RELY ON THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GUILD YOU. IN GENERAL WE ARE LAZY AND ACCEPT EVERY THING A PASTOR OR EVANGELIST SAYS. WHY SHOULD WE DO THIS ? REMEMBER WHEN YOU WERE AT SUNDAY SCHOOL, ONE WAS TAUGHT ADAM AND EVE EAT AN APPLE, DELILAH CUT SAMSON’S HAIR AND THE ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK TWO BY TWO. ALL SOUNDS SO TRUE EVEN ADULTS TODAY BELIEVE THIS, BUT I AM SURE YOU KNOW THAT ITS ALL FALSE.
“Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15 )
Does the Bible contain some difficult passages? Yes. Are they unresolvable? No. Whenever a critic or sincere believer comes across an alleged Bible difficulty, it has always been answered. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness …” (1 Timothy 3:16)
Countless numbers of people read the bible. As they do so they glean an understanding from that. We know that there is a vast diversity of conclusions given the vast diversity of beliefs that exist. This diversity of understanding is not just random, but often is by people who dedicate their lives to their specific variation of belief. YES I AGREE
Think of it this way. In every trial, the defense, the prosecution, and each member of the jury all have an equal opportunity to examine the facts. Each of these parties may see those facts from a different angle. But in the final analysis there is only one truth about what really happened. A similar observation applies here.
You have specific beliefs and will of course happily quote references for it, so my question is this. How do you know that your specific interpretation is correct?
GOD HAS SHOWN ME THROUGH HIS GRACE THAT WHEN I HEAR CERTAIN SERMONS OR HEAR OF HEALINGS AND MIRACLES THAT ARE NOT ACCORDING TO THE TRUTH AS PRESENTED IN THE BIBLE, I THEN FURTHER READ THE WORD AND OTHER VERSIONS OF THE WORD AND AS ONE READS THE WORD ONE’S EYES ARE OPENED AND ONE SEE THE TRUE MEANING.
I do of course understand that you believe it is, and of course I also understand that you are confident that it is. In a world where many will read the exact same texts and reach completely different conclusions,
YES BUT UNFORTUNATELY AS YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE MANY FALSE TEACHER’S, PROPHETS AND PASTORS THAT ACTUALLY KNOW THE CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE BUT TWIST IT FOR THERE OWN GAIN. THIS LIKE SUNDAY SCHOOL THE PEOPLE A LIE AND AS THEY SAY A LIE TOLD OVER AND OVER AGAIN BECOMES THE TRUTH TO THE PERSON.
what is the mechanism you use to determine that your specific conclusions are the correct ones, and how do you verify that it is correct?
LOTS OF WHAT IS ON YOU TUBE AND BOOKS WRITTEN BY PEOPLE ARE WRITTEN WITH THE MINDSET OF WHAT THEY WERE TAUGHT OR THEIR TRADITION OR THEIR UPBRINGING, WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT IF IT’S RIGHT OR WRONG.
WE HAS TO TEST ALL THINGS, THAT MEANS WHEN ONE GETS A DIFFICULT OR HEARS OTHERS PEOPLES MEANINGS OF THE SAME SCRIPTURES, ONE HAS TO EXAMINE FOR HIMSELF AND LET THE HOLY SPIRIT GUILD US TO THE TRUTH.
Dave we are not perfect but its amazing just like when you are about to sin, you get that small voice which gives you the opportunity to sin or not. The choice becomes yours.
IF WE LIVE A LIFE WITH ALL THESE SO CALLED VARIOUS VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE IT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT TO DIFFERENTIATE THE TRUTH FROM THE LIES. WE HAVE TO DEPEND ON THE HOLY SPIRIT, TO SHOW US THE TRUTH IN THE WORD.
Mario
I always wondered if speaking in tongues originally wasn’t simply people preaching in a language the speaker knew, but the audience didn’t know. Sort of “Look, we appreciate your enthusiasm, but we think it would really work better if people understood what you’re saying.”
The first norwegian missionary til Greenland, Hans Egede (1686-1758) is indeed rumoured to have been speaking to hghe native inuits for hours in danish, without anyone understanding what he was saying. He used years before his first baptism, because he wasnt sure they understood what his teaching was. He ended as bisjop of Greenland, and hopefully learned their language…
Thank you so much for helping me understand ,that is pretty much what I thought
As I understand it, speaking in tongues is supposed to be simply a miraculous ability to speak a previously unlearned foreign language, and because its a miracle it is supposed to convince skeptics that God exists. But every time this miracle is tested under controlled conditions it is found that no foreign language is being spoken, its just jibberish., to which the tongue talkers say, “oh it must be a heavenly language”. Give me a break! That means its 100% unfalsifiable.
I love how these science and biology-illiterate theists post their own personal experience about the time they were worked up into a psychological frenzy and out of control…. which is how they know exactly what it is. And despite the fact it occurs in multiple religions and can be replicated by non-believers. They’ve literally admitted that they were not in their right mind, and therefore their recollection, interpretation and understanding cannot be trusted. Aside from this, we have absolutely no independent access to the events, it’s just what they want to tell us, based on the unreliable memory of a person essentially having a seizure, with no corroboration or substantiation – and we are supposed to believe it as described? No. That’s not how it works. Let’s take someone having an epileptic seizure and put them in a position to witness a crime. Now, let’s see how their eyewitness account turns out. It’s simple neurochemicals, but unfortunately science-illiterate theists insist that everything they don’t have the education to understand must be one of the various “gods” – none of which they’ve even substantiated, so attributing it to something that isn’t demonstrated to exist is putting the cart before the horse. It’s no less reasonable for me to attribute it to the invisible unicorns firing their Happy Chatter ray-gun on you; indeed, it makes more sense, given that the unicorns don’t care about religion, which is why the phenomenon spans and manifests many beliefs as well as non-belief. Or, maybe it’s just Odin, trying to get you on the path to Valhalla. I mean, can you prove it’s not Old Norse? Didn’t think so.
@tgbx: There is no seizure and usually no “frenzy/out of control” connected to tongues. However, it (supposedly) changing the state of the brain, saying it a bit naively and speculatively, from a “left hemisphere”-dominated mode to a “right hemisphere”-dominated mode, entering creative and symbolic realms of thinking. Solutions and insights that are inaccessible in everyday mode might emerge. Possibly connections to a spiritual realm open. Let’s liken it to alternate states reached through meditation or shamanism (although I have no experience with either of them).
What is more relevant than the interpretation of tongues “as heavenly languages from God” is the way it is used in the Christian contexts and the effects it is having on peoples lives (see witnesses in other comments).
Tongues is a real gift from God I am a witness. An elderly American woman praying in tongues in our prayer group was heard by a Philipino woman in the group speaking her language. The American lady had never been to the Philippines nor did she know the language. The Philipino lady gave us the translation of what she was praying for which was a woman who was desperate and wanted to kill her children then herself. Two weeks later a woman was brought to our church by a church member who had met her in a grocery store. The church member saw her struggle and helped her pay for her groceries. So she invited her to church and gave her a ride there. The visitor broke down after service and cried uncontrollably. We prayed a long time for her and once she calmed down we asked her to tell us what she was feeling. She said she had been thinking of killing herself and her children but now she knew God was real and she was gonna be okay. So she gave her heart to Him.
The elderly lady has since passed on but the Philipino lady is still alive and the other witnesses to this amazing story. It is true.
This is not the only story like this I have heard many. It happens all the time. Your scientific research has not gone very far at all.
My good friend. I find it interesting that with one broad brush stoke you have dismissed speaking in tongues because of your personal experience backed up with dubious scientific research that is merely sampling. If I went to Africa and tasted the food available there and through my own experience concluded that it tasted very bland, I could return to America and convince those who trust me that the food is tasteless. On the other hand if I was to bring someone from Africa to my home and feed them they would comment that the food was prepared well but did not compare to the delicious flavours at home. Yes this did happen. So what do we conclude? Bias my good friend based on sampling. Unfortunately, sampling may have some value but to draw conclusions from random samplings and conclude that all speaking in tongues is ipso facto phycological babble is to miss the entire point. It is a mystery my dear friend and apparently your rejection of it proves that in fact you never did have it and your experience was based on phyco babble. John tells us that those who leave the faith prove they were never with us. Is this a circular argument? Yes, but it proves that if your faith is shaken to the point of leaving you never did have authentic faith because authentic faith would stand against all storms because it is a spiritual mystery, but at the same time is not gullible. It is unfortunate in our modern age that Christianity is to be scientific, which is usually simple bias mascaraing as logic, instead of being left as a spiritual mystery. I agree with your conclusion that many if not most who speak in tongues are being fooled, but it can also be authentic and you my good companion are not the arbitrator of what is authentic and what is not by your lack of authenticity and biased scientific sampling. You might want to find the authentic and then you could tell the difference. Perhaps you might want to rewrite this blog with a little less bias and a little more insight.
Hi Jim,
How do you work out when it is supernatural and truly authentic, and when it is fake and people are simply fooling themselves?
Dave
I’m a born again Christian, my therapist and I talk about speaking in tongues, I agree some do it and it’s not the Spirit, however studies done on the brain show that werew not in control, I myself have had something so powerful come over me I can’t control it and I speak in tongues that I can’t even try to repeat, there is power there God Bless
I’m a born again Christian, my therapist and I talk about speaking in tongues, I agree some do it and it’s not the Spirit,
HOW CAN ONE TELL IF ITS NOT THE SPIRIT? WHICH SPIRIT IS IT? OR CAN IT BE A LEARNT BEHAVIOR ?
however studies done on the brain show that were not in control
THESE TESTS PROVE WHAT? THAT THE PERSON WAS NOT IN CONTROL,DOES THE BIBLE NOT SAY WE MUST BE IN CONTROL ALWAYS, IF THE PERSON WAS NOT IN CONTROL (WHAT WAS CONTROLLING HIS MIND? GODS SPIRIT OR ANOTHER SPIRIT ? YOU WOULD NOT KNOW AS YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. COULD YOU BE WORSHIPING OR CAUSING GOD? YOU WOULD NOT KNOW,
I myself have had something so powerful come over me I can’t control it and I speak in tongues that I can’t even try to repeat, there is power there
WHAT WAS TONGUES FOR? WHY DO YOU SPEAK IN TONGUES? HOW CAN ONE LET UNKNOWN POWERS COME INTO ONES BODY.
WHATS YOUR REASON FOR WANTING TO SPEAK IN TONGUES
God Bless
Should have added to the above –
Thus, the results are more or less what one would expect; i.e. language producing centers of the brain not overly active in the production of “tongues”.
I know this an older post. But I’m doing some research on speaking in tongues. I’m hoping you may have a response to this you tube video.
http://youtu.be/NZbQBajYnEc
Thanks for your input.
I’m pretty sure that this was commented on in the thread below, but I would argue that the study is somewhat inconclusive and can be skewed to support either a ‘pro’ or ‘con’ argument.
For me, the reason the language producing centers of the brain are not overly engaged in the production of “tongues”/glossolalia is simply because it’s not language; it’s non-cognitive non-language utterance, essentially random free vocalization (random, but limited to the constraints of phonemic inventory of the speaker),so, there’s no need for the language producing centers to be overly active.
Reply ↓
Marchello
A major point my friend Mario keeps missing is: ‘what is the fruit of this tongue speaking’? WAS IT LAUGHTER, CRYING FOR SHOUTING FOR JOY, ….And for me receiving the Holy Spirit SO BY RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU MEAN THAT YOU RECEIVED THE SPIRIT BY THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES?? included healing from desires for drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, swearing, obsession with sex and basically a hedonistic lifestyle all replaced with an admiration and love for Jesus Christ and sharing his message of love and forgiveness and that the power of the Holy Spirit for the early believers is STILL AVAILABLE for ‘believers’ today. IS THE POWER YOU RECEIVE FROM SPEAKING IN TONGUES ? It is a BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT to say that His (Jesus) working in/with me is actually Satan. WELL YOU KNOW THAT TONGUES ARE FROM GOD, OR COUNTERFEIT FROM SATAN OR IT MAY JUST BE A LEARNT BEHAVIOR. TRY DIFFERENTIATING THEM, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE FALSE, THE TRUE AND THE LEARNT TONGUES. But hey even Jesus himself was accused of being in league with Satan by the religious types of his day. So we pray for them for ‘Father they know not what they are doing.’ YES WE DO PRAY FOR PEOPLE THAT DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TONGUES, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT ARE TAUGHT THAT THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS THAT THEY ARE BORN AGAIN AND ARE SPIRIT FILLED.
God has equipped humans with a great range of emotions so we shouldn’t be afraid of joy or sadness in our lives or experiences with God/Holy Spirit/Jesus Christ. We are humans not robots (not yet anyway). Remember King David let it all hang out as he danced and sang on his way back to Israel with the ark. And I do think emotions were running high on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out. There would have been great joy and laughter I believe. Of course Paul warned that the church meetings should be done decently and in order but we also have to be careful that we don’t completely sterilize the emotions of receiving/walking in the Holy Spirit. A major point my friend Mario keeps missing is: ‘what is the fruit of this tongue speaking’? And for me receiving the Holy Spirit included healing from desires for drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, swearing, obsession with sex and basically a hedonistic lifestyle all replaced with an admiration and love for Jesus Christ and sharing his message of love and forgiveness and that the power of the Holy Spirit for the early believers is STILL AVAILABLE for ‘believers’ today. It is a BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT to say that His (Jesus) working in/with me is actually Satan. But hey even Jesus himself was accused of being in league with Satan by the religious types of his day. So we pray for them for ‘Father they know not what they are doing.’
Bergoglio is such eternal blasphemer, cause Bergoglio said “devil and serpent” against jesus Christ!
Jorge Bergoglio is such eternal blasphemer, cause Bergoglio said “devil and serpent” against Jesus Christ!
I’m a highly sensitive person and was diagnosed at 18 as clinically depressed. I was raised Catholic and have been to friends churches where they practiced tounges but it scared me it wasn’t something common for me to see. During one night alone in bed crying feeling at an all time low I started speaking tounges. It was as if it bursted from my mouth I was laughing and crying and had no idea what was coming out of my mouth but it just kept flowing out. Afterwards I felt at peace but kind of scared at what just happened.That was the only time it has ever happened. They say when you’re at your lowest is when you are closest to God and I truley believe that.
Hi Amanda
One not go by experiences, feelings and emotions. WHY because the change all the time and you will act differently at different times.
What did you get out of that experience?
What did the tongues do for you?
Did you understand them? Is there an example in the bible that made the people that spoke in tongues, cry and laugh at something that is supposed to glorify and praise God.
One must aware that there are false tongues and true tongues.
One should be careful wanting to do or doing what other people do, without knowing the subject matter.
God is always with you, he lives in you, you can not get closer or further away from God.
other comments appreciated
to aaquadrat
So if Roman Catholics really praise God from within the heart and their inner intent to praise GOD but through the Apostles and the virgin Mary, they also now speak in tongues. NOW ACCORDING TO YOU GOD SEES THEIR HEART So God WILL ACCEPT THEIR INNER INTENT TO WORSHIP HIM,
iF THAT is CORRECT IF ONE THINKS ALL gODS LEAD TO SALVATION, God will accept all their prays as their inner intent is to worship a GOD?
Ignore capitals please
I disagree with tongues not being real. I am a highly educated woman who studied psychology of religion and also experimente with concepts such as gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have spoken in tongues. In one case I started speaking in tongues and was curious about what language I was speaking in. To my shock I found a book called the 100 names of Allah and
discovered those prhases in the dictionary in the back. I was essentially saying Halleluah! in old Aramaic and the phrase was “Alleluah! Alleluah! (sp) All of creation says that!” Meaning all of God’s creatures are glad to be alive and praise the Lord for that. Another time when I was speaking, the same book helped me understand why I was saying Mount Tabor over and over again. That mount is in the Judeo Christian Bible. These experiences and Ken Wilbur’s comments on tongues in some of his books helped me understand that what is being dealt with here is the psychospiritual aspect of human beings, human bodies. And indeed much of the interpretation of the Bible and probably other scriptures is about that–proper interpretation, that is.
I disagree with tongues not being real. WHAT ARE THE BIBLE VERSES THAT YOU ARE USING THAT DETERMINES IN YOUR MIND THAT TONGUES ARE REAL. I am a highly educated woman who studied psychology of religion and also experimente with concepts such as gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have spoken in tongues. DO YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE REAL HOLY SPIRIT TONGUES AND THERE IS COUNTERFEIT TONGUES ( FAKE TONGUES) In one case I started speaking in tongues and was curious about what language I was speaking in. SO THE HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT GIVE YOU THE INTERPRETATION, HOW LONG AFTER YOU SPOKE IN TONGUES DID YOU EVENTUALLY GET TO SEE THE PHRASES IN THE BOOK ? To my shock I found a book called the 100 names of Allah and discovered those prhases in the dictionary in the back. I was essentially saying Halleluah! SO THE WHOLE TIME YOU SPOKE IN TONGUES YOU REPEATED THE SAME PHRASE OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND ALL IT MEANT WAS HALLELUAH? SO YOU WERE IN ACTUAL FACT SAYING “PRAISE THE LORD” OVER AND OVER AGAIN in old Aramaic and the phrase was “Alleluah! Alleluah! (sp) All of creation says that!” Meaning all of God’s creatures are glad to be alive and praise the Lord for that. Another time when I was speaking, the same book helped me understand why I was saying Mount Tabor over and over again. DID YOU ACTUALLY SAY MOUNT TABOR OVER AND OVER AGAIN, SO IT WAS NOT A HEAVENLY LANGUAGE BUT YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE SAYING That mount is in the Judeo Christian Bible. These experiences and Ken Wilbur’s comments on tongues in some of his books helped me understand that what is being dealt with here is the psychospiritual aspect of human beings, human bodies. And indeed much of the interpretation of the Bible and probably other scriptures is about that–proper interpretation, that is. SO NOW YOU ARE GOING BY KEN WILBUR’S COMMENTS, WHY NOT READ THE BIBLE YOURSELF AND SEE IF WHAT YOU ARE DOING, SHOW US IN THE SCRIPTURES WHY YOU ARE SPEAKING IN UNKNOWN TONGUES THAT COULD BE CURSING GOD OR BE EARTHLY LANGUAGES.
WOULD YOU NOT BE CONCERNED IF YOU MAY BE CURSING GOD?
In fact, no. I would not be concerned if someone interpreted my utterances as “cursing God” when my deepest intention was to praise him or be near to him. Doesn’t the Bible over and over stress that God sees beyond the appearance and looks into the heart? E.g. doesn’t he reveal to Samuel in 1 Samuel 16,7 “Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”
What is your image of God? Are you arguing from a fear-based conception of God?
Well said.
My adult daughter enter into a pentecostal revival church. She really thinks she was lead from God to join this group. They believe all members have the gifts of tongues.
Many years ago i was caught up into this and i am grateful that I fell out of this. It was too emotional and draining. It unsettled my true spirit.
My question is.. how can i saved my daughter from being mislead. My wish is to have my real daughter back. Her real self.
I trried to talk with her but we always argue. Now, I dont bring up the topic and I hope she wakes up to the truth.
Your advise is much appreciate
Thank you
Your daughter has a basic human right to follow whichever religion she chooses. If she was living a homosexual life and you disagreed would you post online that you want her to stop? hmmm
Reply ↓
Marchello
February 22, 2018 at 11:22
I agree with you we could debate for the next generation, but one is for sure Gods Word. Many people have come and gone with their theories and different movements throughout the centuries.
But have you read the Word for yourself, Acts and Corinthians. By reading the Word yourself without the influence of all these comments which at first you thought it to be true and later you see that it was false doctrine.
Lets stick to the gospel, Christ came as a human, baptized by John the Baptist, shared his blood on the cross and was raised from the death and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Experiences, feeling and emotions can lead us astray but by Grace though Faith we can stand for righteousness
If tounges were real I would like to see a group of speakers simultaneously utter the same syllables in their unknown language. As a practitioner who has paced prayer rooms with dozens of fellow tounge talkers I can accurately say this never happens. Another good test would be to have two interpreters in separate rooms after a tounge message is given separately and compare the interpretation. If the same interpretation were given then that would be significant. But I suspect the two interpretations given by the spirit would be radically different.
Doug, what do you mean by “tongues were real”? They are real. But with near certainty they are not languages in the sense of human languages with grammar, vocabulary etc. There are gazillian forms of expression and communication that do not involve full-fledged human languages.
If the Pentecostal church members often speak in tongues then why is it never done in Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, and many other mainstream churches?
APART FROM PENTECOSTALS THESE OTHER RELIGIONS ALSO SPEAK IN TONGUES
WHY DO THE TONGUES SOUND THE SAME AS PAGAN BELIEVERS
TONGUES SPEAKERS ALSO INCLUDE
Assemblies of God, United Pentecostal Church International, Church of God (Cleveland), The Salvation Army, and the Greek Orthodox Church.
Buddhism, Hinduism
Major World Religions
Muslims
The Church of Jesus Christ
Church of Jesus Christ Christ of Latter Day Saints
North Borneo priestesses chant incantations to a Gusi in a language of the spirit world.
In Micronesia and the Solomon Islands, priests and priestesses open themselves to having spirits speak through them in the language of the spirit world,
Yanagide of Moji City and the Zar cult in Ethiopia, practice speaking in tongues.
Like shamans, practitioners of voodoo speak in tongues during their rituals.
The Quillancinga and Pasto groups of the Andes tribes recite prayers in unknown languages during healing as well.
COULD THE ESTIMATED 100 MILLION TONGUE SPEAKERS TODAY BE WRONG ????
TONGUES EXISTED 100 OF YEARS BEFORE THE PENTECOSTAL TONGUES TODAY
Tongues as we see it today did not come about as a result of studying the Bible. It just out of the blue happened. It should be of extreme concern to all Christians, because as already shown, it is not uniquely a Christian practice by any means. Various studies have revealed that speaking in tongues is present in non-Christian religions all around the world. It is practiced in China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Siberia, Arabia, Burma, and Arctic regions just to name a few. Glossolalia is found among the Eskimos, Japanese séances in Hokkaido, in a small cult led by Genji Yanagide of Moji City, the shamans in Ethiopia in the zar cult and various spirits in Haitian Voodoo and is also found extensively in African tribal religions.
WHO HAS THE COUNTERFEIT ?
As this discussion continues into another year of circular arguments ‘for’ and ‘against’ tongues its important to note that some commentators come from a dead form of Christianity known as ‘cessationism’. These are so called Christians who the Bible warns about ‘having a form of godliness but deny the power thereof’. In Jack Deere’s intriguing book, Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, he suggests the following hypothetical situation and result: “If you were to lock a brand-new Christian in a room with a Bible and tell him to study what the Scriptures have to say about healing and miracles, he would never come out of the room a cessationist.”
Hi Marchello
In Jack Deere’s intriguing book, Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, he suggests the following hypothetical situation and result: “If you were to lock a brand-new Christian in a room with a Bible and tell him to study what the Scriptures have to say about healing and miracles, he would never come out of the room a cessationist.” BEING LOCKED IN A ROOM WITH THE BIBLE WOULD HE START SPEAKING IN TONGUES AND HEAL PEOPLE AND SEE MIRACLES?
Hi Mario
As I said, and it’s rather boring now, these arguments will no doubt continue for years to come! lol
I’ve previously provided you with information from Church history involving famous Christians and Holy Ghost Revivals that the dwindling number of cessationists must either ignore or attempt to rewrite to fit their heretical viewpoint.
The following is unashamedly copied and pasted from http://pneumareview.com/answering-the-cessationists-case-against-continuing-spiritual-gifts
“Many good books have been produced showing the frequent outbreak of miracles and spiritual gifts throughout church history (See also the excellent series by Richard Riss entitled “Tongues and Other Miraculous Gifts from the 2nd to 19th Centuries” which appeared in the first five issue of the Pneuma Review, Fall 1998 (Vol 1 No 1) through Fall 1999 (Vol 2, No 4)).
We will offer only three seldom-quoted examples of many hundreds available. Chapter 22 of St. Augustine’s City of God is devoted to the story of how Augustine himself became a full blown “charismatic” after being a bit of a theological cessationist.
He repudiates his previous position, and provides examples of over seventy miracles he recorded in and around his churches. Augustine complains in section 22,8 that contemporary miracles are relatively unknown not because they no longer occur, but simply because of bad communication and because people are conditioned to disbelieve them. Pope Gregory VI in writing about the successful evangelism of Britain enthused: “…great miracles imitate powers of the apostles in the signs they [perform].” Much later, Luther seems to have undergone a similar conversion to that of Augustine toward the end of his life.”
Mario, please apprise me of ANY cessationists held in higher esteem than Augustine or Luther in Christian history.
To all you readers, like it or not, spiritual gifts as mystifying and strange as they are, have always been part of the true Christian church from its birth at Pentecost through to today. Sure there have been cults and extreme unscriptural behavior (as with any religion) and people who lose their faith. But Charismatic Christianity has a well recorded history and none of you scientists and sceptics can change that. Go do some more research…
Marchello
I totally agree. I did not believe in God, did not attend Church, never read the Bible, Wanted to test God to see if He really existed, God seen my heart that l truly wanted to know the truth, and not being influenced by anyone at all. Said a simple prayer asking God to reveal Himself to me if He really existed, and l was immediately on my knees, speaking in tongues and singing in tongues for over an hour. The people who don’t believe in the gifts from The Holy Ghost will have their day to give an account, some tongues are not of this world but are meant for God’s ears to hear and understand. Also just to let you know l have spoke in fluent German that l have never been exposed to but a couple in church that came from Germany approached me and asked me how did l know what they were praying for and how was I speaking in their language as if l lived in the part of Germany they came from. I told them l had no clue what language l was speaking nor did l understand what l spoke. They both said it was a direct answer in our language to something we were praying about. They thanked me and l said it was my honor to serve The Lord and do His will. I’d be very careful knocking the gift given to Christians from The Holy Ghost, because you surely don’t want to commit the ONLY unpardonable sin, blasphemy of The Holy Ghost. Rather be safe than sorry for all eternity. Open your hearts and stop trying to stop people from receiving the gifts from The Holy Ghost of God. Every knee shall bow and every TONGUE shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, like it or not scientists and everyone else doing satans work. Amen. Let it be written and let it be done. You’ve been warned people
How do you know that you experienced something supernatural from a god, and did not simply subconsciously copy those around you in the church doing exactly the same?
Please also supply the contact details of this German couple so that we may independently interview them and verify this claim. Also advise on when this happened and where.
“test the spirits to see whether they are from God” – 1 John 4
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be
false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies…” —2nd Peter 2:1
Our fundamental Bible churches today are filled with ignorant believers who view Martin Luther as a great hero of the faith. Tragically, Martin Luther was a heretic! I realize this comes as a shock to many Christians; but, the proof is undeniable. The Biblical teaching of being saved by faith alone is often attributed to Martin Luther; BUT, nothing could be further from the truth.
Indeed, Luther and the other reformers did challenge the Catholic Church that sold indulgences and offered a “works-based” type of salvation. However, just because Martin Luther protested against the Catholic Church doesn’t mean that he was saved. Martin Luther often taught that salvation was based on faith alone, and not received based upon a person’s meritorious works; however, Luther’s idea of faith alone does not conform to the Biblical teaching that baptism is not required for salvation.
While it is understood that the opinions of men are in no way authoritative when it comes to God’s plan for salvation, it is nonetheless interesting to note that Martin Luther believed wholeheartedly in the necessity of water baptism as a prerequisite for salvation.
WHAT WOULD SAY TO THIS
Should we go by MAN or Gods word ?
Lets read what the word says on speaking in tongues. How many times did it occur in the Book of Acts? How many years apart sis it happened? Who required SIGNS?.
Reading about what most of you believe helps me understand how people can join a cult. I used to think wonder how people can be so clueless and just believe anything, but you all helped me understand how people, even today, can be followers and not even question anything. Do you really, truly believe in speaking in Tongue? I mean seriously? What about someone walking on water? Really? Or someone turning water into wine? I know of a lot of you probably want to so banks believe in something supernatural, it’s like the acient Greeks with their Greek gods, or natives with their multiple gods. I’m sure you all feel that is redicioulas to have a sun god or a moon god right….well what about worshipping to a person that supposedly could walk on water or rose from the dead. We are smarter people now days, we have all of this technology and knowledge at our fingertips. Educate yourselves from actual scientific facts, not what a book of rumors and stories that many many many people rewrote over time.the bible is like the exercise of telling one person a story, then they tell to the next person, who then tells the next and so on. The end result will be completely different p, with imbelishes and things added. That’s the bible.
Er, Dwight, it is not as simple. Science speaks about the repeatable, the laws that we perceive to hold categorically, like gravity etc. It does not make a statement about things that are not repeatable, like what a historic person did or could have done. It does not disprove that people rose from the dead. Even assuming the persistence of the physical laws at all times, it does not even exclude the possibility of raising from the dead, it might only assign it a low probability.
Wow, Dave first posted this in July 2010 and it has generated a great deal of passionate response. I just stumbled across it searching for relative information. Glad I did. It now gives me an opportunity to share my thoughts and experience. I am a practicing Christian. I was born and raised Catholic, and as a young adult gravitated to various Protestant denominational ideas, and ultimately pentecostalism where I too believed that tongues were actually being spoken, and that I too did on few occassions. Prayerfully, I asked God for guidance and wisdom on the matter that so many seem equally certain and confused about. And He provided as always reminding me that He is not the author of confusion. My belief therefore that tongues as practiced today in many churches has now changed. I do concur that most of it is intentional and self generated. I am still a believer in God and His word, and believe in the apostolic message of salvation, but speaking in tongues I have concluded is meaningless and is no indicator or proof that His Spirit has fallen on anyone save the early church following the upper room experience which had a supernatural utility and purpose. Believers and nonbelievers should pray for wisdom as I did. He will answer.
Mike – “I guess the Apostle Paul was deluded when he said that he was glad that he spoke more in tongues than others? Someone should have told him it was all in his mind and make believe.”
As someone already alluded to, Paul was, for his time anyway, a “world traveler”. He was most likely familiar with several languages; though quite frankly, he could have travelled just about anywhere in the Mediterranean basin knowing just two: Greek and Latin. He was simply stating that he was glad that he spoke more languages than most people he was addressing. Being multi-lingual would allow him to spread the message of Christianity to more people in their native language (or should I say – ‘native tongue’).
Carole – Some tongues (languages) are recognizable. My mum gave a message in tongues at a Sunday meeting and there were a couple who had lived in Africa, they said she had an African dialect. Tongues of angels and of men. One chap in our meeting, though not entirely all in the French language, gives messages in tongues and I recognize some words as French as I learned it at school.
Unfortunately, most accounts of tongues coming out as real language are all anecdotal at best. It is almost inevitable that if someone were producing random free vocalization, a few of their ‘words’ are going to be real words in a language spoken somewhere. That does not equate with that person being able to speak that language. If one of the syllables uttered were, say “apa” – it doesn’t mean anything in English, but I’d be willing to bet that it means something in probably several (if not more) real languages spoken somewhere.
Sort of something akin to the old saying, “sit 100 monkeys in front of 100 typewriters for 100 years and one will turn out the works of Shakespeare.”
There are just too many variables that could easily explain these situations. Did the couple from Africa simply state that what was being produced sounded like an African language or was an actual African language? i.e. did they recognize it as a real language (if so, which) or something that “sounded African”?
The person who mixed some French with his glossolalia – does anyone have any idea what his exposure has been to French? It’s not uncommon for people to include a few words in their “tongue” in a language they may be familiar with. There’s a great example that was recorded from a person from New Zealand who clearly used corrupted forms of several English words as well as a few Maori words in their glossolalia. Getting back to your example, why would there only be a few words in French? Why not the whole sequence? That just doesn’t stand to reason.
“Tongues of angels” as Paul uses it, is complete hyperbole. It was not ever meant literally.
The thing is, there are no two ‘tongues’ that will ever sound the same as they are based primarily upon the speaker’s own native language and typically contain a subset of sounds found in that language (no two speakers will ever use quite the same subset of sounds). In this sense, one could say that there are thousands of “tongues”, or just as many different ‘tongues’ as there are tongues-speakers. If indeed “tongues” were a heavenly language, why would there ever be need of more than one??
You’re totally wrong Kavik! Do you speak in tongues? I doubt it with what you’re saying. As I said to Mario ‘its better felt than telt’. I know some Pentecostal churches are way, way off the mark, which is a problem perhaps, though I’m blessed in going to a church that has sound doctrine and only preaches from the Bible, the true Word of God. My life changed for the better 38 years ago when I received the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues. At that time I felt like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders and the knot in my stomach was no more and I couldn’t wipe the smile off my dial for days. My experience hasn’t changed and, of course, we all have our problems at times, its part of life but I have the Lord now and I no longer rely on anything such as alcohol. The answer is ‘KISS’ ‘keep it simple stupid! John 3:3-8 ‘the Spirit breathes where it wills or wishes ‘pneuma = spirit’ where we get the Greek word pneumonia from. Simon the sorcerer (Acts 8:18) obviously saw or heard something as he thought he could buy the power – it was those that had received the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues that he actually heard. Mario, Acts 2:3 ‘cloven’ here means ‘to divide throughout’. I’m probably wasting my breath, so I’ll say cheers and I hope one day the Lord will reveal himself to you both BUT you have to seek Him first with a humble heart. Humbles yourselves under the mighty hand of God. I’ll say goodbye now. Carole
Respectfully, no, I don’t think so.
There are absolutely no references in the Bible with respect to “tongues” (read “languages”) that can not be explained in light of real language and what was happening both historically and culturally at that given time, whilst what modern tongue speakers are doing is easily explained in term of modern linguistics. There is no contradiction between ‘tongues’ and ‘real language’ in the Bible. The usage of ‘tongues’ makes it sound like something it simply is not; one of the pitfalls of using 17th century English in the 21st century.
Anyone can ‘speak in tongues’; it’s just random free-vocalization, non-cognitive non-language utterance. It’s a question of overcoming any ‘weirdness’ one may have/feel about playing with one’s language to begin producing the glossolalia. As a Linguist, I play with the sounds of language all the time, so in a sense, I “speak in tongues” almost every day.
Tongues as they are used today by Christian practitioners are a relatively recent phenomenon (to Christianity that is, certainly not to other cultures and religious paths).
Speakers will argue that the origin/reference is Biblical, but it simply is not.
James K.A. Smith in “Thinking in Tongues” (April, 2008) sums it up nicely where, in reference to the origins of modern tongues, he writes “The miraculous phenomena that manifested themselves at the Azusa Street revival, for example, compelled serious and sustained reflection. The events needed explanation (since it was painfully obvious that xenoglossy was not, as Parham fervently believed, what was happening), and the Pentecostal preachers and leaders turned to the resource that was most important to them: the narrative of Scripture. The resulting implicit theology was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy but rather a synthesis trying to make sense of the experience in light of the narrative of Scripture.”
In short, looking for a way to legitimize what they were doing by ‘proofing‘ it in the Bible, despite the obvious absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues – call it what you will, but the result was a virtual re-definition of Scripture with respect to the understanding of “tongues” for this group of Christians.
I don’t know why there’s such an insistence on equating “tongue(s)” to something other than what the word actually means – a (real) language. Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians have to justify/legitimize/proof what they’re doing in light of Scripture. What they’re looking for though, just isn’t there; it never was. But without tongues, some Pentecostalism/Charismatic denominations fall rather flat; so what is in the Bible is reinterpreted to make what they are doing there.
As to benefits of ‘speaking in tongues’ such as you describe – this is no more different than the benefits one can derive from deep spiritual meditation or even religious chants. I totally agree that there are definite benefits in the practice, and it can certainly be argued that it is a way for the practitioner to establish a closer relationship with the divine, but whether tongues, chants or meditation, all are simply a tool by which to accomplish this.
Kavik writes:
Except for the first letter of Paul to the Corinthians.
Take chapter 12, 1-11: “Tongues” and their interpretation is conceived as a manifestation of the Spirit, and it is mentioned in one breadth with “message of wisdom”, “message of knowledge”, “faith”, “gifts of healing”, “miraculous powers”, “prophecy”, “distinguishing between spirits”. These are all spiritual and supernatural capabilities. Why would something mundane as speaking a foreign language end up in the same pot as “miraculous powers” or “prophecy”?
I can well consider glossolalia as something miraculous, since I cannot explain it in my everyday experiences, but why would I attribute spiritual powers to someone speaking in French to me?
Or take chapter 14, 2: “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no-one understands him”. If I speak French, surely someone can understand me. If I produce glossolalia instead, no one will understand me. So, what would Paulus likely refer to by “tongues” here?!
I can’t help but finding the assertion “tongue = foreign language” ridiculous. I’d put it in the corner of an ideological rationalization.
Except for the first letter of Paul to the Corinthians.
I have to disagree. Let me back up a second and preface this with the following:
Pentecostal and Charismatic ‘tongues-speakers’ look for Biblical references for what they are doing; however, they are simply not there. The resulting implicit theology is not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture.
In other words, a way to legitimize the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing‘ it in the Bible, despite the obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues – call it what you will, but the result was a virtual re-definition of Scripture with respect to the understanding/justification of modern “tongues” for this group of Christians.
One of the best examples of this is with Paul’s letter. There just isn’t anything there that can’t be explained in light of real language.
Take chapter 12, 1-11: “Tongues” and their interpretation is conceived as a manifestation of the Spirit, and it is mentioned in one breadth with “message of wisdom”, “message of knowledge”, “faith”, “gifts of healing”, “miraculous powers”, “prophecy”, “distinguishing between spirits”. These are all spiritual and supernatural capabilities. Why would something mundane as speaking a foreign language end up in the same pot as “miraculous powers” or “prophecy”?
That’s a good and fair question, and this is probably not the best way to answer; I know what I want to say, but it’s a matter of writing it so it makes some degree of sense, so at any rate…I wish I had some specific examples/references of this, but what has always struck me as sort of odd is that in many ancient cultures (particularly European and Middle Eastern it seems), the ability to be multi-lingual, to be able to speak, or translate, or write foreign languages, or any combination of the three, seems to have been looked upon or held in very high regard. A person who had a natural “knack” or ability for learning languages and did so (whether for the benefit of a particular king/ruler, his tribe, his people, whatever) was typically regarded with some degree of wonder and awe – their ability was often considered to be a ‘gift from the gods’. Again, I wish I had specific examples from different cultures and had a better understanding of why this was, but it seems to almost universal in areas where typically only one or two languages is spoken. It is quite possible that it is because a country’s or people’s language was oftentimes considered to be a gift from (the) God(s). It seems here, we are seeing the Hebrew/Jewish version of this concept; i.e. the ability to speak several languages regarded as a special gift bestowed upon humans by the divine.
The ability to be able to speak in various languages is said to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
People associate the term “spiritual gift” with it though, and the connotation/understanding is that it’s some sort of ability which is different from a natural ability/talent, which God gives someone when converted/saved. One didn’t have them prior to being saved, and then once saved, God gave them to him/her. All Charismatics would see them as obviously being supernatural in their manifestation.
Why, however, does any ability that God chooses to give us, particularly given for the intent of being used to better the church (as these 9 ‘gifts’ are), need to be considered extraordinary, miraculous, or almost required to be called supernatural?
Given the ordinary nature of most of these, why shouldn’t the ability in various languages be the bent/knack of some to ease the problem of communication in the church? These manifestations after all were given for the common good, not for some individualistic purpose.
It is better perhaps to see these ‘gifts’ as God-given natural abilities. Given, perhaps, with the intention that they are to be used for spreading or evidencing of His glory among people.
Further, you have to also keep in mind that ‘tongues’ as used in the Bible is nothing more than real human language(s).
With respect to language, any person who has a God-given ability to pick up foreign languages seemingly effortlessly can be said to have the “gift of tongues”. Just as anyone who has exceptionally keen insight may be said to have the “gift of prophecy”, a village/tribal elder steeped in knowledge, wisdom and lore, the “gift of wisdom”, etc.
So too could a person using a foreign language to administer to non-English speaking members of a congregation – perhaps stuck and struggling, not sure what or how to express a given topic, and draws on the H/S for inspiration, then suddenly starts speaking on the topic for an hour, very confident in what they’re saying. I would argue that this could also certainly be interpreted as the “gift of tongues”.
Again, the above is perhaps not the best way to put what I’m trying to say, but hopefully it makes some sense.
I can well consider glossolalia as something miraculous, since I cannot explain it in my everyday experiences, but why would I attribute spiritual powers to someone speaking in French to me?
I suspect many people may think the same way simply because they don’t really have an idea of what it is they’re doing or, perhaps better said, how they’re doing what they’re doing. Glossolalia can be relatively easily explained if one wishes to know what it is and how it’s produced, but I suspect many Christians who practice it would rather not be told.
Well, I don’t think anyone would. The purpose of this manifestation (i.e. people who had the ability/gift to learn languages quickly and easily) was for the church to encourage and evangelize people who spoke languages other than that spoken in a given church. In the case of Corinth, to gain converts from other parts of the world where Greek was not spoken via believers who spoke these languages.
Some would argue that the ‘gift of tongues’ entails that the language(s) in question would be instantly known by the speaker without having to learn them, but there’s no real evidence to suggest that.
Or take chapter 14, 2: “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no-one understands him”. If I speak French, surely someone can understand me. If I produce glossolalia instead, no one will understand me. So, what would Paulus likely refer to by “tongues” here?!
Many use 1 Cor. 14:2 as “proof” of tongues being spiritual language(s) – but upon closer examination, it simply describes real language, though a foreign one to the “hearers”. Note that, contrary to how some are taught to look at the passage, nowhere does it state that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying. It’s just not there.
To explain it further, if I attend a worship service in ‘East Haystack’, Alabama two things are going to be evident: one; there’s only going to be so many people at that service (i.e. there will be a finite given amount of people there) and two; the chances that anyone in East Haystack speaks anything but English is pretty slim to nil. If I start praying aloud in say Lithuanian, there’s no one at that service that’s going to understand a word I’m saying. Even though I’m speaking a real language, no one there will understand my “tongue”. That does not mean or imply that no one else understands Lithuanian; just no one at that particular service. So it ends up being a “real language no one understands” (within that given context). To the people listening to me, I am speaking ‘mysteries” in the Spirit (i.e. I’m praying earnestly from my heart and from deep within my being = praying ‘in the spirit’). Further, because no one else understands me, I am, in effect, praying just to God.
I can’t help but finding the assertion “tongue = foreign language” ridiculous. I’d put it in the corner of an ideological rationalization.
Not sure why this is difficult – the word ‘tongue’ (Gk. glossa) means ‘language’. The usage of ‘tongue’ in place of ‘language’ in many Bible translations is rather archaic, though we still use it today in certain expressions (e.g. we speak of someone’s native ‘tongue’). I think because ‘tongue’ is used instead of the more modern word ‘language’, people tend to associate it with something mysterious and something it never was.
I can well consider glossolalia as something miraculous, since I cannot explain it in my everyday experiences, but why would I attribute spiritual powers to someone speaking in French to me?
This may better explain my take on “spiritual gifts” –
Considering the fact Paul wrote three letters to three different groups of believers describing spiritual gifts and did not routinely repeat the same list of gifts, it’s probably safe to assume there are additional spiritual gifts unlisted in his writings.
I would,in fact, argue that for Christians, any natural God-given talent may be said to be a “spiritual gift” if used in the ministry of God. Paul describes nine specific ones in his letter to the church in Corinth that he felt were the most important to further the message of Christianity in that church and perhaps also in that area of the world.
The spiritual “gift of tongues” (read “manifestation of languages”) therefore is not just a knack/ability for learning languages easily than others, but more so, using that ability in spreading the message of Christianity and to the further glory of God.
The same may be said of the “gift of interpretation” (i.e. the translation of said languages)
Kavik, thanks for your answer. I am just incredibly mystified by your interpretation of 1st Corinthians. Let me quote some more verses which I think point to “tonges = glossolalia” rather than “tonges = foreign languages”.
Chapter 12, 10: “… to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.”
Speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues seem to be two different things. That does not make sense for natural languages. You can’t speak a language if you do not understand it, and vice versa.
However, you can produce glossolalia without understanding its meaning (if there should be a meaning). And you can be inspired by glossolalia to say something as its “interpretation”. Think of the string of sounds uttered in glossolalia as a “random seed” to trigger some thoughts/memories/imagination that are thought of as its “interpretation”. [Er, yes, I am computer scientist.]
Chapter 13, 1-2: “If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love … If I have the gift of prophecy…”
Again, like in Chapter 12, tongues is paralleled with prophecy, both intuitive (supernatural is debatable) rather than rational capabilities. Paul mentions both “tongues of men” and “tongues of angels”. The latter is certainly not a natural language, but could mean glossolalia. The former would likely mean natural languages. So Paul says something that virtuous speech and beautiful “angelic speech” (certainly not a language known to men, what else than glossolalia) are worthless without love.
Chapter 14,2: “…they utter mysteries by the Spirit”. Foreign language utterances are not “mysteries by the Spirit”, certainly not to the speaker.
Chapter 14,13: “For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say”.
If I speak something in French, I do not need to pray for the interpretation. I can simply say the same thing in English. If I speak glossolalia, I have no clue what it means, so I can hope to be given the interpretation by God if I pray. Why would Paul ask the speaker of just a foreign language to pray for the interpretation? How do you imagine the scenario? Some guy who does not speak Greek even though living in Corinth and being a member of the congregation there, this guy going to the service and praying out loud in his own language that no one else understands, and then praying for a translation to Greek, and something forms in his mind, and he speaks perfect Greek and everyone understands him?? And this happening on a regular basis so Paul needs to discuss the ordering of the service according to this phenomenon? Come on.
Chapter 14,14: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”
Sounds like an accurate description of glossolalia to me. Matches the findings that the higher language centers in the brain are not involved (“mind is unfruitful”). [Certainly he did not have brain imaging, but only introspection to come to this formulation.]
From there, Paul seems to equate “praying in a tongue” with “praying with my spirit”.
Chapter 14,15: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.”
Seems like Paul implies that “praying with his spirit” excludes understanding. Again a good match for glossolalia.
I can’t see a natural reading of 1st Corinthians 12-14 with your thesis that Paul just talks about foreign natural languages here. Your thesis seems very contrived.
I have seen people quote Ch. 13,8 “where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled” as an argument why modern Charismatic practice is “ungodly”, but I have never heard anyone denying that glossolalia is reported and discussed in the New Testament. I am greatly puzzled here.
Aaquadrat – I’ll respond to your post as quickly as time allows. A lot of points to comment about!
Apparently, due to size, I’ll have to comment in two separate posts, so 1 of 1 –
_Chapter 12, 10: “… to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.”
Speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues seem to be two different things. That does not make sense for natural languages. You can’t speak a language if you do not understand it, and vice versa.
However, you can produce glossolalia without understanding its meaning (if there should be a meaning). And you can be inspired by glossolalia to say something as its “interpretation”. Think of the string of sounds uttered in glossolalia as a “random seed” to trigger some thoughts/memories/imagination that are thought of as its “interpretation”. [Er, yes, I am computer scientist.]_
Yes, it would seem so at first, but the early church services were modeled after Jewish ones at which the rabbi/teacher spoke in the sacerdotal language of Hebrew and there was another person by his side (this person had a specific title that escapes me at the moment) who translated what the teacher was saying into the vernacular of the audience (Aramaic or Greek as the situation warranted) since by the 1st century AD, virtually no one in the audience would have understood Hebrew.
So in light of this, Paul separates the two, speaking and translating, even though they obviously go hand-in-hand. You can speak a language but not be very good at translating (as stupid as that sounds). Translation work (particularly simultaneous interpretation – think of a UN translator/interpreter) is actually not as simple as it may seem.
Not sure I’d agree that the glossolalia would be the inspiration for the interpretation so much as the person offering the interpretation being inspired by his/her faith and belief. Interpretation of glossolalia may also be said to be self-created based on one’s deep faith and belief. But, I do see your point in the ‘random seed’ analogy.
_Chapter 13, 1-2: “If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love … If I have the gift of prophecy…”
Again, like in Chapter 12, tongues is paralleled with prophecy, both intuitive (supernatural is debatable) rather than rational capabilities. Paul mentions both “tongues of men” and “tongues of angels”. The latter is certainly not a natural language, but could mean glossolalia. The former would likely mean natural languages. So Paul says something that virtuous speech and beautiful “angelic speech” (certainly not a language known to men, what else than glossolalia) are worthless without love._
Here’s a bit more on Paul’s use of hyperbole in his letter (taken from an article written by a N. Busenitz, April, 2014). He explains it better than I can:
The phrase in 1 Corinthians 13:1 is parallel to Paul’s subsequent statements (in v. 2) of knowing “all mysteries and all knowledge” and of having “all faith so as to [literally] remove mountains.” Both of those statements articulate hyperbolic impossibilities (since no one can know all the mysteries or have all knowledge or possess all faith). In verse 3, Paul gives additional extreme examples: giving “away all my possessions” and giving “my body to be burned.” While martyrdom is obviously possible, it still fits the pattern of Paul’s use of extreme examples in order to illustrate a crucial point: even the most superlative expression of any gift (including that which is impossible) would be worthless if it is devoid of love.
One of the things that is important to note about the grammar of 1 Corinthians 13:1 is that, in the Greek, it literally reads: “If with the tongues of men I speak and of angels.” That construction is unique and occurs only here in the New Testament. The grammar suggests that Paul intentionally separated the tongues of men from the tongues of angels, articulating the normal expression of the gift of foreign languages before emphatically inserting a hypothetical hyperbole. This pattern is seen in Paul’s subsequent examples as well.
Based on a comparison of all of Paul’s hypothetical examples in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, a strong case can be made that the apostle was using superlative, hyperbolic, and extreme examples to showcase the superiority of love. This contextual consideration leads us to conclude that the “tongues of angels” was a rhetorical expression, used by Paul to make a point. It did not describe the actual gift of tongues, which consisted only of “the tongues of men.”
When the grammatical and contextual evidence is considered, the “tongues of angels” simply does not provide Charismatics with Biblical support for a non-human form of tongues.
Chapter 14,2: “…they utter mysteries by the Spirit”. Foreign language utterances are not “mysteries by the Spirit”, certainly not to the speaker.
I think you have to take the whole passage into account to understand what is meant.
If I attend a worship service in ‘East Haystack’, Alabama two things are going to be evident: one; there’s only going to be so many people at that service (i.e. there will be a finite given amount of people there) and two; the chances that anyone in East Haystack speaks anything but English is pretty slim to nil. If I start praying aloud in say Lithuanian, there’s no one at that service that’s going to understand a bloody word I’m saying. Even though I’m speaking a real language, no one there will understand my “tongue”. That does not mean or imply that no one else understands Lithuanian; just no one at that particular service.
There’s a few things here to note – first, the passage in no way even remotely suggests that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying; it’s the audience who do not understand, as they don’t speak his language. It ends up being a real language “no one understands” (within that given context). To the people listening to me, I am speaking “mysteries”. An idiomatic expression akin to our “it’s all Greek to me”, i.e. we have no clue what he’s saying; thus, he’s “speaking mysteries”.
Praying “in the Spirit” is another misinterpretation by Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians. Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying (i.e. the language we’re praying in). Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for.
There is no reference to ‘languages’ in any of the three places mentioned above. If the current phenomenon is found here, it is because it has been read into it. ‘Pray in the Spirit’ has come to mean in common Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance, ‘Pray in tongues’.
_Chapter 14,13: “For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say”.
If I speak something in French, I do not need to pray for the interpretation. I can simply say the same thing in English. If I speak glossolalia, I have no clue what it means, so I can hope to be given the interpretation by God if I pray. Why would Paul ask the speaker of just a foreign language to pray for the interpretation? How do you imagine the scenario? Some guy who does not speak Greek even though living in Corinth and being a member of the congregation there, this guy going to the service and praying out loud in his own language that no one else understands, and then praying for a translation to Greek, and something forms in his mind, and he speaks perfect Greek and everyone understands him?? And this happening on a regular basis so Paul needs to discuss the ordering of the service according to this phenomenon? Come on._
No, that’s not at all what I’m suggesting. I’m going to try to explain this in light of real language as best I can…..
The text does not necessarily imply that the person speaking is also going to be doing the translation; it just says he should pray that he can translate what he’s saying – it doesn’t indicate how the translation is to be done. The assumption is that the person speaking will also be doing the translating, but it could just as well imply that if he’s planning on praying aloud at a public meeting, to pray that he’s able to secure a translator for himself.
There is no specific time frame referenced – most people would imply that his ability to translate would be instantaneous, but it could just as well imply that he should pray that (at some point) he’ll also be able to translate (whether he himself learns the local language well enough, or he has someone translate for him).
As I mentioned earlier, it’s one thing to speak another language but another thing to interpret/translate.
If my native language is English and I learn German enough to be able to speak it to get by, it does not necessarily mean I can adequately translate; I may be able to get across the gist of what I’m trying to say, but to express the nuances, particularly with things like prayer, is actually quite a difficult task.
As an example, a few years ago, I translated a simple four-line “meal grace” used in Scouting into a few local Native American languages. Four incredibly simple lines in English, but maddeningly difficult to accurately translate into these languages and try to capture all the nuance and exact meaning of the English original. I never expected it would take anywhere near as long as it did.
Given then the difficulties faced in translation/interpretation, it is not at all unreasonable for a person in a multi-lingual church situation to ask God for help so that the rest of the church can be edified through their participation. Again, it should also be pointed out that the interpretation is not confined to the one speaking as referred to in v13 and in v5. Verse 28 indicates others also can interpret, and of course, there’s no specific time frame referenced.
Paul then goes on to indicate, that if the person can’t translate (whether himself or through a translator), he should keep quiet and pray silently to himself.
As R. MacLachlan write in his book “Tongues Revisited”, “Assuming modern tongues is what is referred to in 1 Corinthians 14, and God’s intention is to edify the church – as is emphasized constantly throughout the chapter – why does he activate someone to exercise the phenomenon but not in all cases provide an interpreter? In fact, why does he give a ‘message’ in a language not known to anyone in the church at all? If edification is what he intends, (and emphatically it is, as this chapter makes plain), why put hurdles “tongues” in the way of it?”
Here’s 2 of 2 –
_Chapter 14,14: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”
Sounds like an accurate description of glossolalia to me. Matches the findings that the higher language centers in the brain are not involved (“mind is unfruitful”). [Certainly he did not have brain imaging, but only introspection to come to this formulation.]
From there, Paul seems to equate “praying in a tongue” with “praying with my spirit”._
The results from the study done by the University of PA that you refer to (the one where they did SPECT imaging of tongues-speakers) seem to support the idea that the reason the language centers of the brain are not overly active during the production of glossolalia (“tongues”) is because glossolalia is not language. I think the results could be skewed either to support or refute “tongues”; thus, should not be relied on as evidence or proof to support either view.
“If I pray in a language, my spirit prays, but my understanding/mind produces no fruit”
Again to paraphrase a little from the aforementioned book, Tongues Revisited…..
What is the fruit that a person’s mind bears? I think the reasonable answer is ‘understanding’. An important question must also be asked. Where does a person’s mind bear fruit or produce understanding? The Charismatic response is, ‘In the person’s own mind.’ This hinges on the use of the word “akarpos” (unfruitful) in Greek. It can be used either with and active meaning or a passive meaning. Charismatic Christians take the meaning as passive; producing no understanding in the speaker’s mind.
However this answer is clearly wrong. The text identifies the fruit of a person’s mind as being the understanding that occurs in the mind of others, not their own! This is an extremely important point as virtually the whole charismatic view of ‘tongues’ finally swings on the word ‘unfruitful’ referring to the speaker’s own mind.
Akarpos, may be also used passively – that part of the text does not center on the activity or nonactivity of the speaker’s mind, but rather on potential benefit derived by listeners.
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the effect upon the hearers of untranslated languages. Paul’s concern is the edification of the group. Therefore, 14:14 should be taken as “My spirit prays but my mind does not produce fruit [in others].” In other words, my mind, my understanding, i.e., the fact that I understand what I’m saying, produces no fruit in others (since they don’t understand my language).
It is interesting to note that Luther’s Bible of 1545 renders the phrase as “my mind/understanding brings no one fruit.
One has to wonder if perhaps Luther understood the passive meaning of the phrase.
_Chapter 14,15: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.”
Seems like Paul implies that “praying with his spirit” excludes understanding. Again a good match for glossolalia._
I will pray with my spirit, i.e. pray in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, and I will also pray with understanding.
In other words, not only will I pray and be edified through my own prayer – which I understand but others don’t – I will also pray so that fruit is produced in the congregation to their edification. The same goes for singing. It hinges back to the verse before it. The idea of the speaker’s understanding also producing fruit (understanding) in the audience’s mind.
This thought is then extended and clarified in v16 and v17 where a person who doesn’t understand the praise being given to God can’t say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving. He doesn’t know what you are saying. You’re giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
I don’t think “understanding” is excluded here since it really refers to the audience, not the speaker.
I can’t see a natural reading of 1st Corinthians 12-14 with your thesis that Paul just talks about foreign natural languages here. Your thesis seems very contrived.
I don’t think so. As I’ve attempted to demonstrate above, each passage can be understood in light of real language.
I have seen people quote Ch. 13,8 “where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled” as an argument why modern Charismatic practice is “ungodly”, but I have never heard anyone denying that glossolalia is reported and discussed in the New Testament. I am greatly puzzled here.
I think that hinges on the Pentecostal/Charismatic understanding of “tongues”/glossolalia. For these Christians, “tongues” can only mean glossolalia, otherwise what they are producing/doing doesn’t have any Scriptural reference. The word used was ‘glossa’ and its meaning is ‘language’ – Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are reading into the text something that is just not there.
I think some of this centers on the meaning of the phrase “(praying) in the Spirit”.
It’s only mentioned three times in the Bible (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude).
The Greek word translated “pray in” can have several different meanings. It can mean “by means of,” “with the help of,” “in the sphere of,” and “in connection to.” Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for.
Therefore, praying in the Spirit should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, not as praying in “tongues”.
Here’s 2 of 2
_Chapter 14,14: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”
Sounds like an accurate description of glossolalia to me. Matches the findings that the higher language centers in the brain are not involved (“mind is unfruitful”). [Certainly he did not have brain imaging, but only introspection to come to this formulation.]
From there, Paul seems to equate “praying in a tongue” with “praying with my spirit”._
The results from the study done by the University of PA that you refer to (the one where they did SPECT imaging of tongues-speakers) seem to support the idea that the reason the language centers of the brain are not overly active during the production of glossolalia (“tongues”) is because glossolalia is not language. I think the results could be skewed either to support or refute “tongues”; thus, should not be relied on as evidence or proof to support either view.
“If I pray in a language, my spirit prays, but my understanding/mind produces no fruit”
Again to paraphrase a little from the aforementioned book, Tongues Revisited…..
What is the fruit that a person’s mind bears? I think the reasonable answer is ‘understanding’. An important question must also be asked. Where does a person’s mind bear fruit or produce understanding? The Charismatic response is, ‘In the person’s own mind.’ This hinges on the use of the word “akarpos” (unfruitful) in Greek. It can be used either with and active meaning or a passive meaning. Charismatic Christians take the meaning as passive; producing no understanding in the speaker’s mind.
However this answer is clearly wrong. The text identifies the fruit of a person’s mind as being the understanding that occurs in the mind of others, not their own! This is an extremely important point as virtually the whole charismatic view of ‘tongues’ finally swings on the word ‘unfruitful’ referring to the speaker’s own mind.
Akarpos, may be also used passively – that part of the text does not center on the activity or nonactivity of the speaker’s mind, but rather on potential benefit derived by listeners.
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the effect upon the hearers of untranslated languages. Paul’s concern is the edification of the group. Therefore, 14:14 should be taken as “My spirit prays but my mind does not produce fruit [in others].” In other words, my mind, my understanding, i.e., the fact that I understand what I’m saying, produces no fruit in others (since they don’t understand my language).
It is interesting to note that Luther’s Bible of 1545 renders the phrase as “my mind/understanding brings no one fruit.
One has to wonder if perhaps Luther understood the passive meaning of the phrase.
_Chapter 14,15: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.”
Seems like Paul implies that “praying with his spirit” excludes understanding. Again a good match for glossolalia._
I will pray with my spirit, i.e. pray in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, and I will also pray with understanding.
In other words, not only will I pray and be edified through my own prayer – which I understand but others don’t – I will also pray so that fruit is produced in the congregation to their edification. The same goes for singing. It hinges back to the verse before it. The idea of the speaker’s understanding also producing fruit (understanding) in the audience’s mind.
This thought is then extended and clarified in v16 and v17 where a person who doesn’t understand the praise being given to God can’t say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving. He doesn’t know what you are saying. You’re giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
I don’t think “understanding” is excluded here since it really refers to the audience, not the speaker.
I can’t see a natural reading of 1st Corinthians 12-14 with your thesis that Paul just talks about foreign natural languages here. Your thesis seems very contrived.
I don’t think so. As I’ve attempted to demonstrate above, each passage can be understood in light of real language.
I have seen people quote Ch. 13,8 “where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled” as an argument why modern Charismatic practice is “ungodly”, but I have never heard anyone denying that glossolalia is reported and discussed in the New Testament. I am greatly puzzled here.
I think that hinges on the Pentecostal/Charismatic understanding of “tongues”/glossolalia. For these Christians, “tongues” can only mean glossolalia, otherwise what they are producing/doing doesn’t have any Scriptural reference. The word used was ‘glossa’ and its meaning is ‘language’ – Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are reading into the text something that is just not there.
I think some of this centers on the meaning of the phrase “(praying) in the Spirit”.
It’s only mentioned three times in the Bible (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude).
The Greek word translated “pray in” can have several different meanings. It can mean “by means of,” “with the help of,” “in the sphere of,” and “in connection to.” Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for.
Therefore, praying in the Spirit should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, not as praying in “tongues”.
Looks like I can’t post two longer comments right after one another. It times out on me. I’ll post “part 2 of 2” ASAP.
_Chapter 14,14: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”
Sounds like an accurate description of glossolalia to me. Matches the findings that the higher language centers in the brain are not involved (“mind is unfruitful”). [Certainly he did not have brain imaging, but only introspection to come to this formulation.]
From there, Paul seems to equate “praying in a tongue” with “praying with my spirit”._
The results from the study done by the University of PA that you refer to (the one where they did SPECT imaging of tongues-speakers) seem to support the idea that the reason the language centers of the brain are not overly active during the production of glossolalia (“tongues”) is because glossolalia is not language. I think the results could be skewed either to support or refute “tongues”; thus, should not be relied on as evidence or proof to support either view.
“If I pray in a language, my spirit prays, but my understanding/mind produces no fruit”
Again to paraphrase a little from the aforementioned book, Tongues Revisited…..
What is the fruit that a person’s mind bears? I think the reasonable answer is ‘understanding’. An important question must also be asked. Where does a person’s mind bear fruit or produce understanding? The Charismatic response is, ‘In the person’s own mind.’ This hinges on the use of the word “akarpos” (unfruitful) in Greek. It can be used either with and active meaning or a passive meaning. Charismatic Christians take the meaning as passive; producing no understanding in the speaker’s mind.
However this answer is clearly wrong. The text identifies the fruit of a person’s mind as being the understanding that occurs in the mind of others, not their own! This is an extremely important point as virtually the whole charismatic view of ‘tongues’ finally swings on the word ‘unfruitful’ referring to the speaker’s own mind.
Akarpos, may be also used passively – that part of the text does not center on the activity or nonactivity of the speaker’s mind, but rather on potential benefit derived by listeners.
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the effect upon the hearers of untranslated languages. Paul’s concern is the edification of the group. Therefore, 14:14 should be taken as “My spirit prays but my mind does not produce fruit [in others].” In other words, my mind, my understanding, i.e., the fact that I understand what I’m saying, produces no fruit in others (since they don’t understand my language).
It is interesting to note that Luther’s Bible of 1545 renders the phrase as “my mind/understanding brings no one fruit.
One has to wonder if perhaps Luther understood the passive meaning of the phrase.
_Chapter 14,15: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.”
Seems like Paul implies that “praying with his spirit” excludes understanding. Again a good match for glossolalia._
I will pray with my spirit, i.e. pray in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, and I will also pray with understanding.
In other words, not only will I pray and be edified through my own prayer – which I understand but others don’t – I will also pray so that fruit is produced in the congregation to their edification. The same goes for singing. It hinges back to the verse before it. The idea of the speaker’s understanding also producing fruit (understanding) in the audience’s mind.
This thought is then extended and clarified in v16 and v17 where a person who doesn’t understand the praise being given to God can’t say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving. He doesn’t know what you are saying. You’re giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
I don’t think “understanding” is excluded here since it really refers to the audience, not the speaker.
I can’t see a natural reading of 1st Corinthians 12-14 with your thesis that Paul just talks about foreign natural languages here. Your thesis seems very contrived.
I don’t think so. As I’ve attempted to demonstrate above, each passage can be understood in light of real language.
I have seen people quote Ch. 13,8 “where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled” as an argument why modern Charismatic practice is “ungodly”, but I have never heard anyone denying that glossolalia is reported and discussed in the New Testament. I am greatly puzzled here.
I think that hinges on the Pentecostal/Charismatic understanding of “tongues”/glossolalia. For these Christians, “tongues” can only mean glossolalia, otherwise what they are producing/doing doesn’t have any Scriptural reference. The word used was ‘glossa’ and its meaning is ‘language’ – Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are reading into the text something that is just not there.
I think some of this centers on the meaning of the phrase “(praying) in the Spirit”.
It’s only mentioned three times in the Bible (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude).
The Greek word translated “pray in” can have several different meanings. It can mean “by means of,” “with the help of,” “in the sphere of,” and “in connection to.” Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for.
Therefore, praying in the Spirit should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, not as praying in “tongues”.
The way I understand it, the gift of speaking and understanding in a different language was a beautiful gift by God when he changed the language of the people that were trying to build the tower to Heaven. I was raised pentecostal and taught very strictly their beliefs. My family is still pentecostal and I have a great respect for them all, I respect anyone that can live each day in kindness, love, and faith. I ran across this while researching the Bible for myself as well as for my daughter. I am trying to understand Gods Word for myself without influence. There are many things I don’t understand and sometimes feel like I shouldn’t even question what was taught to me but until I can tell my daughter Why without saying, “That is just the way it is and you are not to question it.” I will continue my quest of understanding thru reading, praying, and researching the Word of God. I have really enjoyed reading all the comments on here! Not one view on here is any less than the other, nor is one person on here the hail Mary of truth while the others are fumbled. I 100% believe our personal relationship with God and how much faith we allow ourselves to walk in, will ultimately be our guide to understanding, not what some scientist said. What scientist would admit to and proof anything for a Christain?Why would they go against their
own values, beliefs, teachings, studies, peers, and everything else related to science to admit a supernatural force liken to the very one they believe never existed? Why would I believe any study done by someone that thinks they are related closely to a monkey and we are all simply evolved gorillas? I don’t hold much regard in the main article as I found it to be rather distasteful and actually sad, I feel sorry for the author. Enlightment should only come thru self discovery…If not wouldn’t you always question the validity? I would and I wish you all the best journey you could possibly have. One Love
Hi Amy,
I think I should add one key observation – No amount of belief makes something a fact.
You will need to ask yourself this question. Are you interested in knowing what is actually true, or simply embracing a belief that is popular?
The one person that will always be inclined to fool us the most is ourselves, and so we all need to start by working out a reliable way of determining what is and is not objectively true. If you don’t have a reliable way of doing that, then you can’t really have any confidence in any conclusions.
Mike, you’re being analytical. No offence. If you experience it, you know its right and you are in tune with God. The natural man understands not the things of God. Challenge Him!! All the talk in the world is futile. He simply lays it down and if we follow it, we’ll get the answer. Repent, be baptised and guess what you’ll receive the Holy Spirit. Say hallelujah over and over and your tongue WILL change. You have to be absolutely sincere in your approach. Test it! But all the waffle in the world (as we do), will bring about nothing. He promises and it’s there if we check in.
Whether the tongue sounds like a natural language or not is irrelevant. It can though as proven by certain comments here. My words are short and hopefully sweet. When you debate against tongues, you’re debating against God. Man is so clever in his own mind that he doesn’t see the real picture. We love to analyse. We get on our soap box. I’m amazed at how many comments are on here arguing away at the tongue issue. You know what – the thing that man cannot control is the tongue. It’s full of envy, strife etc. that’s why the Lord chose the tongue and takes control of it. Speaking in tongues is a sign you have received God’s Holy Spirit. I know I’ll cop it for my frank outburst, but I’m not worried. Stop debating and put it to the test. You’ll know then it’s for real. Stop arguing with the creator. Humility is called for. It’s been made complicated when it’s all so simple. Repent, be baptised and you will receive the HS. It’s a promise AND GOD DOES NOT LIE!!! Amen and amen.
The “tongues” Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians are producing today is an entirely self-created phenomenon. It is non-cognitive non-language utterance; random free vocalization based upon a subset of the existing sounds of the speaker’s native language, and any other language(s) the speaker may be familiar with or have had contact with. It is typically characterized by repetitive syllables, plays on sound patterns and over-simplification of syllable structure.
There is nothing that these ‘speakers’ are producing that cannot be explained in natural linguistic terms.
Conversely, there are no Biblical references to ‘tongues” that cannot be explained with respect to real language.
The idea that debating against tongues is debating against God doesn’t stand as there is nothing in the Bible that references what Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are doing. There’s no arguing against the Creator here; just a total re-definition of Scripture by tongues speakers to proof what they are producing is in the Bible.
People seem to forget that “tongue(s)” is just a somewhat archaic word for “language(s)”. Replace “tongue(s)” with “language(s)” in these passages and the whole modern concept of “tongues” begins to sound considerably less mysterious and mystical/angelic. Indeed, it begins to become difficult to posit the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic concept of ‘tongues’.
Pentecostal and Charismatic ‘tongues-speakers’ look for Biblical references for what they are doing; however, they are simply not there. The resulting implicit theology is not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture.
In other words, a way to legitimize the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing‘ it in the Bible, despite the obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues – call it what you will, but the result was a virtual re-definition of Scripture with respect to the understanding/justification of modern “tongues” for this group of Christians.
“Tongues” is simply not what its ‘speakers’ want/need it to be.
Modern tongues is just another tool, like chanting or meditation, etc.; a way by which one may establish a closer relationship with the divine. In this respect (i.e. as the tool it is), it can be quite powerful to accomplish this goal. Known by many different names, “tongues” is practiced by many cultures and religious beliefs from all over the world; it is relatively new to Christianity and certainly not unique to it.
Frequently going hand-in-hand with tongues, “interpretation” may also be said to be a self-created phenomenon. Interpretations, inspired by one’s deep faith and beliefs, are typically inordinately longer than the actual glossic utterance. The relatively generic messages however do not suggest anything divinely inspired. This is clearly evidenced in that the same glossic string played to ten different interpreters yields ten non-related results. In “tongues”, a ‘big brown dog, can also be a ‘small white cat’.
The common answer is that God/the Holy Spirit gives different interpretations to different people. To paraphrase from a few writers…Pentecostal Darwinism however, does not exist – there’s no mutation or transformation of one message into several for the sake of justifying an obvious discrepancy. If this were the case, it would completely eradicate the need for ‘tongues’ in the first place. It’s akin to improv. You’re an actor. What’s your motivation? You’re God, and you want to say something encouraging and/or inspiring to the gathered audience. Improvise. Go!
Where in the word of God do we any just say repeat hallelujah. When anyone received the sign gift it was instant. Not something one could be taught,
So with OUT repenting AND being water baptised YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE THE GIFT OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES?
so its not the holy spirits gift, YOU HAVE TO BE SINCERE IN YOUR APPROACH, SO YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF THE GIFT.
DOES THE BIBLE ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES ? If so we all should be pastors, prophets, teachers ect OR WE ARE ALL the eye, the foot , the body, the hip???
I’m not going to elaborate. As you say hallelujah your tongue will change. You have to be of a contrite heart. It’s there for all but not all will take heed. Without my Spirit, you are none of mine. I’ve told you how to receive it. It’s now up to you. Stay skeprical if you want to. My sheep know my voice. Amen
Thanks for the comments. We should also understand we believe by faith and not by sight,
So one has to beware as we know emotions, feeling and experience can not be relied upon as they change. But Gods work never changes
i had a neighbor who claimed to the capacity to speak in tongues and she claimed that she was speaking in ancient hebrew. I asked her how she knew it was in ancient hebrew, and she stated that it sounded like the hebrew she heard on TV. I pointed out that hebrew was already a dead language by the time of the so called biblical timer of christ. And today, hebrew is taught like latin ( phonetically) and we have no way to know what the original hebrew alphabet sounded like. And se was just mimicking what she heard on TV and just making up words. She asked me how I knew this, and i responded in actual hebrew to answer her question. I was immediately told to leave the house.
I think this is very typical – people say it “sounds like” language X, not “it IS” language X.
We do know what Hebrew sounded like in the first century AD – not sure if that’s what’s used/taught in Judaism today with respect to reading from Torah, etc. It is different from modern Hebrew.
Hi Mike
January 7, 2018 at 02:55
Paul wrote 1 Corinthians about 25 years after Pentecost. What happened before that
Pentecost from then what happened Pentecost : Holy Spirit and tongues
4 years later again at Samaritan Peter and John : Holy Spirit NO tongues
5 years later Paul conversion Ananias : Holy Spirit NO tongues
19 years later Cornelius conversion Peter : Holy Spirit and tongues
23 years later Ephesus Paul : Holy Spirit and tongues
What was tongues at Pentecost ?
What was tongues 19 and 23 later ?? SURELY EARTHLY EARTHLY LANGUAGES ? IF PAUL SPOKE MORE EARTHLY LANGUAGES THAN MOST FOLK AT THAT TIME
PAUL COULD SAY “I SPEAK MORE TONGUES THAN ANYONE “.
BUT IF YOU CONCLUDE THAT PAUL MEANT, HE SPENT MORE TIME PRAYING IN HEAVENLY TONGUES THAN ANYONE ELSE, HOW WOULD HE KNOW THAT?
LOTS RELIGIOUS FOLKS COULD BE SPEAKING IN TONGUES 1,2,3,5,10, OR MORE HOURS A DAY, HOW WOULD PAUL KNOW HOW MANY HOURS EACH PERSON SPOKE IN TONGUES?? Example could Paul really know how many hours he prayed? what about LUKE 2:37 ” and then was a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.”
The listeners listed all their various nationalities and observed again that they HEARD the speakers speaking of the mighty deeds of God in their own tongues (glossa), meaning EARTHLY languages. The miracle HEARING, I could be speaking Galilean but you heard it in English.
Initial giving of the Spirit to different people groups in the book of Acts:
(1) Jews (Acts 2),
(2) Samaritans (implied in Acts 8:18),
(3) Gentiles (Acts 10)
(4) disciples of John the Baptist (Acts 19)
I guess the Apostle Paul was deluded when he said that he was glad that he spoke more in tongues than others? Someone should have told him it was all in his mind and make believe.
Hi Carol
I KNOW WE ARE ON A DIFFERENT SUBJECT. BUT THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS : IRON SHARPENS IRON
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
The Hebrew word yom and its plural form yamim are used over 1900 times in the Old Testament. . . . Outside of the Genesis 1 case in question, the two-hundred plus occurrences of yom preceded by ordinals all refer to a normal twenty-four hour day. Furthermore, the seven-hundred plus appearances of yamim always refer to a regular day. Thus, it is argued that the Exodus 20:11 reference to the six yamim of creation must also refer to six regular days.1
For example, have you read Numbers 7 recently? It is one of those boring sections that you would rather skip over in your Bible reading plan, forgetting what 2 Timothy 3:16 says! Well, in Numbers 7, the tribes of Israel bring their gifts for the Tabernacle to Moses. In Numbers 7:12, we read that the tribe of Judah brought their offering on the first day. On the second day, the tribe of Issachar came (Numbers 7:18. Zebulun brought their offering on the third day (Numbers 7:24). Since a day with the Lord is as a thousand years (2 Peter 3:8), was poor old Moses sat there for 12,000 years, waiting for these offerings? Of course not! These were 12 literal 24-hour days. And the grammar of Numbers 7 is identical to that of Genesis 1. In fact, outside of Genesis 1, there is not a single example of the word yom being used with a number, where it does not mean a 24 hour day. So, there is no reason to interpret Genesis 1 in any other way than to state that it refers to 24-hour days.
Why did God take six days?
Was there death, pain, and suffering before Adam and Eve’s sin?
At the close of the Creation Week, God called everything He had made “very good.” This is powerful evidence against the idea that long ages of suffering and dying took place before the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, appeared.
If you think about it, an infinite Creator God could have created everything in no time. Why, then, did He take as long as six days? The answer is given in Exodus 20:11. Here we find that God tells us that He deliberately took six days and rested for one as a pattern for man—this is where the seven-day week comes from. The seven-day week has no basis for existing except from Scripture. If one believes that the days of creation are long periods of time, then the week becomes meaningless.
The Bible tells us that Adam was created on the sixth day. If he lived through day six and day seven, and then died when he was 930 years old, and if each of these days was a thousand or a million years, you have major problems! On the fourth day of creation (Genesis 1:14-19), we are given the comparison of day to night, and days to years. If the word “day” doesn’t mean an ordinary day, then the comparison of day to night and day to years becomes meaningless.
Carole
January 4, 2018 at 10:23
Is there any scriptures that command or instruct us to speak in tongues. If tongues is so important why is it not a requirements for bishop, Elders, pastors and deacons.
See 1 Timothy 3:1–7: “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.”
See Titus 1:6–9 “An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it”
See 1 Timothy 3:8–13 “In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything. A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus”
IF SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS NECESSARY AND IMPORTANT SHOULD THEY NOT ELDERS, DEACONS AND PASTORS HAVE THEM MORE THAN AN ORDINARY PERSON NOT ASSIGNED TO A POST?
WHY IS TONGUES NOT A FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT ? Galatians 5:22-23 ” But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” SHOULD IT BE ?
For many years SPEAKING IN TONGUES it was confined to the Pentecostal churches, but now crosses all denominational lines in the form of what is called the Charismatic Movement. Even Roman Catholics, Protestants, cults, and some who call themselves Baptists, practice tongues and have joined the movement
Are tongues in your assembly different from all these other tongues ? because everything is done decently and in order. You have up to 3 messages in tongues with an interpretation after each message and then at the most, 3 prophecies. IF THE MESSAGES ARE INTERPRETED WHY NOT JUST HAVE THE MESSAGE IN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE TO START WITH. WAS SPEAKING IN TONGUES IN ACTS 2 NOT “magnifying and glorifying GOD” IN COMMON EARTHLY LANGUAGES.
YOU MENTIONED THE FOLLOWING, I ANSWERED WITH CAPITALS TO MAKE IT EASIER TO UNDERSTAND
We are expected to repent REPENT FROM WHAT, REPENT FROM OUR SINS, OR REPENT FROM UNBELIEF TO BELIEF IN JESUS, OR REPENT FROM OUR MISTAKES (turn away from our own ideas) WHAT IDEAS DO WE TURN FROM ? get baptised SO TO BE BORN AGAIN WE NEED TO BE WATER BAPTISED ? (the Greek word meaning inundated) NOT sprinkled, christening is not mentioned in the Bible (how can a baby or small child repent) AND you shall receive the Holy Spirit.SO WE RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT BY BEING WATER BAPTIZED ? Speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of an inward experience.DOES THE BIBLE NOT SAY NOT ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES ??? SO IF I DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES I AM NOT SAVED , I HAVE NOT GOT THE HOLY SPIRIT ???
Its to be used in our daily prayer life SO SPEAKING SOMETHING YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND, IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER. DID JESUS SPEAK IN TONGUES AS HE WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. DID HE EVER INSTRUCT HIS DISCIPLES OR THE JEWS TO SPEAK IN TONGUES ??? as well as in the operation of the Spiritual Gifts during a meeting. I prefer not to say church as ‘The Church’ is the Body of Christ and without receiving the Holy Spirit speaking on tongues you are none of His. Repent, get baptised and receive the Holy Spirit. I promise you your life will change forever for the good. Basically turn or burn! The Lord Jesus Christ is at the door He’ll be back soon. Have a look around you, greed, no morals, boasters, children disobedient to parents, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. Do it, you have no excuse and as the scripture says ‘a fool in his heart says their is no God’. Receive the Spirit speaking in tongues and walk on in that way before the Lord returns.
SO YOU ARE SAYING ONE MUST REPENT (FROM WHAT)
BE WATER BAPTISED
SPEAK IN TONGUES OTHERWISE ONE IS NOT SAVED ???? is that what the bible teaches ?
Mario.
Repentance means basically to turn away from our own way of thinking and turn to the Lord. Before I was baptised under the water, I didn’t really know what repentance was so I said in my mind ‘forgive me Lord for sinning against you, my parents and my own body’ (anorexia). Just a few scriptures for you. Mark 16:15-20, Acts 2:4,38, Acts 10:44-46. The Lord Jesus had no need to speak in tongues He was God as a man. Men and women including Mary and the Lord’s disciples were there on the day of Pentecost where they were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues. The folk in the Old Testament didn’t receive the Holy Spirit as such though they were moved by it at times, it wasn’t there time but some saw it from a far off. We are in the last of the latter days and the Lord’s return is imminent. We have to be filled with His Spirit, and walk on the Spirit until the day of His return. Yep ‘repent, get baptized and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Hope this answers some of your questions. I live in the southern hemisphere nowadays so its after 11 pm here. Cheers, Carole
Good morning Mario. Yes unless we receive the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues we aren’t saved. The elders, bishops, etc of the NT did speak in tongues. I read my Bible for a few years before I was saved. I could understand some of the Gospels, i.e, Matt-John but as soon as I received the Spirit (speaking in tongues) and looked at God’s Word (Bible) I said to my mum ‘wow its speaking to me’. Genesis to me back then was just about ‘thou and thee’ now its clear. The Lord didn’t create the world in 7 consecutive days as some would believe, as the Hebrew word ‘yom’ means ‘an unspecified period of time NOT a day’. Note too that the Lord created ‘man’ on the 6th day in Gen.1, and in Gen. He made man i.e Adam and Eve, being 8th day man as we are today. Cheers, Carole
How can one explain receiving the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues to those that haven’t received it? Well my late Pastor used to say ‘its better felt than telt’ ….. not grammatically correct, of course, though it makes a lot of sense to me. I can only suggest that you get down on your knees and ask the Lord to fill you. You really have to want it and approach Him in a humble manner (on your knees), ask from the heart and say a few hallelujahs. It happened to me as I said 38 years ago, it can happen to you too. My job is to witness to people ‘go out and preach my Gospel ….. he that believes (adheres to ,trusts in, obeys) shall be saved. He’s saying repent, get baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit and you shall SPEAK IN TONGUES. That is the beginning of one’s salvation. Be like a child and do what He says, not what I say. Many are called but few are chosen. I’m not here to win arguments but to save souls for the Lord. I came to the Lord as a child (humbly, I mean), I didn’t ask questions, I just did what was pointed out to me from the Bible. There are assemblies all over the world that believe in the same message as we do and they’re now part of us. PNG has thousands of Spirit Filled folk and they have lots of baptisms every week, they’re simple people (not unintelligent). As Anglo-Saxon Celtic folk we could learn a lot from them,. They have nothing in the natural sense but they are richer than millionaires because He cares! Ask the Lord to direct you to the Truth. Pilate asked Jesus ‘what is truth?’, he was looking at it straight in the eye! No man can come to the Father but by Him (Jesus Christ). Why should I make stories up or tell a lie, what does that profit me? Nothing! I am telling you the absolute truth. I’m praising the Lord for my salvation and my wonderful life in Him. He provides all my needs, not necessarily my wants. I’d be pushing up daisies if not for Him choosing me. How blessed I am. Living in this horrid world today, I regularly quote a scripture “a thousand shall fall at thy side and ten thousand at thy right BUT it shall come nigh thee (me)”. As I said do what He says. That great and terrible day of the Lord is night at hand. Great for Spirt filled overcoming believers but terrible for everyone else. Take care. Read the scriptures I’ve suggested. Carole
The Lord expects us to do everything decently and in order as the scriptures says and not to burst out in tongues willy nilly. The assembly I attend does everything decently and in order. We have up to 3 messages in tongues with an interpretation after each message and then at the most, 3 prophecies. I received the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues 38 years ago, that experience has never left me. At that time I suffered with anorexia nervosa, the Lord heal me. We are expected to repent (turn away from our own ideas), get baptised (the Greek word meaning inundated) NOT sprinkled, christening is not mentioned in the Bible (how can a baby or small child repent) AND you shall receive the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of an inward experience. Its to be used in our daily prayer life as well as in the operation of the Spiritual Gifts during a meeting. I prefer not to say church as ‘The Church’ is the Body of Christ and without receiving the Holy Spirit speaking on tongues you are none of His. Repent, get baptised and receive the Holy Spirit. I promise you your life will change forever for the good. Basically turn or burn! The Lord Jesus Christ is at the door He’ll be back soon. Have a look around you, greed, no morals, boasters, children disobedient to parents, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. Do it, you have no excuse and as the scripture says ‘a fool in his heart says their is no God’. Receive the Spirit speaking in tongues and walk on in that way before the Lord returns.
Yes Carole. You hit it on the head. Anon
Wow, mind-blowing girl. Not wishy woshy. It’s so clear to me now.
“Speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of an inward experience.”
Yes, but that outward manifestation is entirely self-created. Modern ‘tongues’ are simply a tool. Read some of the posts below.
Modern tongues are non-cognitive non-language utterance based primarily upon the speaker’s own native language.
There are hundreds of examples which have been recorded and/or transcribed and analyzed. Not one has ever been found to be real language let alone something that was/is spoken somewhere in the world.
Hi Kavik
Some tongues (languages) are recognisable. My mum gave a message in tongues at a Sunday meeting and there were a couple who had lived in Africa, they said she had an African dialect. Tongues of angels and of men. One chap in our meeting, though not entirely all in the French language, gives messages in tongues and I recognise some words as French as I learned it at school.
Hello! I found your excellent post after a search related to an unrelated idea. As someone who was a full-on tongue talking, prophecying, vision having freaknut pentecostal for twenty years, I feel I may have an interesting perspective on such things and even though this is an old post, I can’t help but say my tuppence worth.
I am now an atheist, after realising over an agonising few years that everything I’d built my life on for most of my adult life was a crock of shite.
I was previously involved with the “Toronto blessing” and went to a Pentecostal Bible College for two years, amongst other things studying New Testament Greek and a smattering of O.T. Hebrew, along with a very strangely skewed version of Church History. I know the Bible better than anyone I’ve ever met and I can categorically say I don’t believe a word of it.
As for ‘tongues’ I came to the conclusion long ago that it is, as this article partly suggests, a taught response that is not entirely without it’s merits as a form of releasing your innermost feelings in the form of random gibberish and, depending on your variety of lunacy, groaning, weeping, laughing and making pronouncements of meaning and feigned power. It feels really nice to do, and one sometimes enters into a similar state to some forms of meditation. Especially if you do the “soaking” stuff where you all lie around on the floor with floaty music and say and sing things as ‘the spirit’ moves you. But as for the act itself, it’s completely meaningless. You may as well be blowing rasberries. Actually at some of the wilder meeting I attended as a young Christian, I’m pretty sure some people did. I’m also fairly sure I remember people making animal noises too. I semi-rejected that stuff after a short while and became a mostly sensible member of ‘new wave’ type churches like NFI and Vineyard.
If you’d asked me about it a decade ago I’d have spouted the same guff that all the religious people below have done. It’s simply impossible, within the evangelical mindset to accept information that disagrees with your understanding of how the world works. It truly seems to be clearly fallacious because you have ‘experienced’ God in a very real way, so everything is viewed from a highly skewed pespective.
It’s really difficult to allow yourself enough doubt to honestly assess your own experience. For me this process took many years, and was made possible in part because my health collapsed while I was a believer. I had no energy to read or listen to audio books, or talk to people. I just had to sit and think, and in that situation you naturally become more honest with yourself.
I’m going to post a slightly edited version of this post on another thread btw. I like your website by the way. If you’re interested in a highly unusual version of a ‘testimony’ I’d love to write about it some more.
Hi Dan, if you write it all up, I’ll happily publish it as a separate posting.
The human Spirit desires EXPERIENCE, it does not differentiate good from bad, and it certainly does not speak through us, but rather within us.
We are here to experience life for our Spirit, Higher Self, Soul, etc., and whether it be deemed evil, good, perfection or a lie, it is still experience that feeds our Spirit. On a human level speaking in tongues is unfortunately a farce, but on a Spiritual level the delusion we see from the religious minded is exactly as it should be.
@Scott: Your comment is a bit cryptic, I did not fully understand. Can you elaborate a bit?
Thanks for sharing, Dan. You say “releasing your innermost feelings in the form of random gibberish”, and maybe this is actually the point of the exercise. Opening up. I feels like reaching a higher state of mind. However, it does not work in the same way if your are not believing something meaningful/Divine is happening.
How does people respond to prayers ? Like falling down, devils dancing etc ..
@J
Though they’re long, I think you need to read through some of the comments below with respect to the concept of modern tongues and various studies done. I think they will provide a better insight to the phenomenon of modern tongues/glossolalia.
Speaking in tongues is a real phenomenon but, for Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians, a very modern one (though glossolalia itself is very ancient); no two are ever the same.
Hi all
Speaking in tongues as per Acts 2.
When you received tongues did you hear the sound of a mighty rushing wind? Did you see cloves like fire rest upon you? Did tongues come immediately ? or were you taught how to pray in tongues?
Did any of the people that received the gift of tongues at Pentecost, then teach other believers to speak in tongues? Is this biblical.
Does the bible say its for all believers?
It’s not actaught language but on receiving it your tongue changes. Tests have been done to see if it’s just man going blah blah…. they found out it wasn’t but something they couldn’t explain. The power of God. Better felt than telt!!!!
Not sure what tests you’re referring to, but the only ones I know of were done by the UP using SPECT imaging several years ago. The results of the study were exactly as one would expect. The language centers of the brain were not overly engaged in producing “tongues” because modern ‘tongues’ are not language; they are non-cognitive non-language utterance; self-created random free vocalization which is based upon the speaker’s own native language (and any other s/he may be familiar with of have been exposed to).
Hello there! I feel prompted to comment, because this article actually doesn’t provide “hard solid scientific proof that [speaking in tongues] is not real.”
First, this article is a “secondary source.” This means that the author is not publishing his own findings, but is reporting on the findings of others. Therefore, the margin for error in communication is increased: without reviewing the cited sources, we cannot know if the author of this article is presenting study findings accurately. (Therefore, we cannot accept the author’s assertion that his article offers scientific proof.)
Secondly, the author’s following claim raises a red flag: “Modern practitioners claim that what they are doing is exactly the same as the experience described within the Book of Acts (2:1-13), however one huge discrepancy is that the story within Book of Acts describes recognised languages from all around the Roman Empire being spoken. In stark contrast, nobody understands the modern mindless babbling.” This is an incorrect and false assertion. I have personally heard reports of people praying in tongues unknown to them, only for the tongue to be recognized by another individual as a modern day language. I do not expect anyone to read the statement I just made and believe in the gift of tongues, or that the reports are true. I only ask readers to consider that reports contrary to the author’s assertion DO exist. (This further negates the “proof” supposedly offered in this article.)
Thirdly, the existence of false practitioners of tongues (people who imitate or create language-like sounds out of deep belief or a desire to deceive) is not sufficient to negate the existence of legitimate practitioners of tongues. Similarly, false practicing born of a desire to “blend in” to a spiritual community does not negate the existence of impartation of real tongues. (My third point actually reminds me of an episode of “Friends.” Phoebe attempts to teach Joey basic French, which Joey needs for an audition. Joey imitates Phoebe’s inflections and syllables, but he never speaks a legitimate French word. However, although Joey is just making convincing noises, Phoebe is speaking a real language.)
Finally, there are several issues with the research cited in this article:
– We do not know if any of the research conducted was skewed by research bias.
– The sample from “Abnormal Psychology” was unrepresentative: only 60 out of thousands of unbelievers were studied; and apparently, they were all undergraduates at the same university.
– The article states that the study in “Abnormal Psych” found that “20% could accomplish it . . . and 70% could succeed . . .” but the author of this article does not define what “it” is. A made up language? A real language that was unknown to every student? A made up language very similar to a language that each student spoke? The answers to these questions could increase or decrease the study’s validity.
– We do not know if the people Samarin sampled all defined “speaking in tongues” the same way, nor can we deny the possibility of uncontrolled/unknown variables that may have impacted his studies.
– There appears to be a lack of repetition among the studies. Scientifically speaking, if study findings cannot be replicated, the findings of the initial study are typically considered anomalies.
– Only three studies were referenced. All of the studies are rather outdated, and two were published during the same year. These facts do not invalidate the study’s findings, but they imply that research on the subject is limited. (Unfortunately, we can’t take the author’s word for there being “a lot of independent studies” done – because accepting his word does not follow the scientific process!) This is a phenomenon dating back to Ancient Rome, with worldwide reports of its occurrence. Additional studies are therefore warranted before a definite conclusion can be reached.
The research critique in my final point presents questions that may be answered by reviewing the studies themselves, and/or by additional research. However, they are questions worth asking, because they offer insight into the validity of the research, and because this article fails to address them.
In conclusion, I wrote this comment to demonstrate that despite the author’s claims, this article fails to offer scientific proof that the gift of tongues is not real. When a reader employs critical thinking, the flaws in this article are very evident; so much information is lacking, and the author’s examination of the gift of tongues is far from scientific. Academically speaking, this article has little merit. One might find that the same can be said of the sources cited. I won’t tell you what to believe in, but please don’t take this article’s word for it.
@J
Although somewhat lengthy, I think you need to go through the comments below to get more insight to the modern phenomenon of tongues with respect to studies and general comments.
Tongues/glossolalia is a real phenomenon, but for Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians, a very modern one (glossolalia itself though is very ancient); no two tongues are ever the same (as they are self created) which negates any sort of idea of the ‘universality’ of tongues.
Just read your summation and experience concerning tongues. I have been involved in ministry full time for near on 26years now and debated this many times. I know many a time it has been debated by those who believe simply based on experience rather than scripture. I come at it from a scriptural point of view and would assert, even with distinguished scholars, that they are in era if they believe that the tongues spoken about by Paul was a human language. The bible simply does not support the theory that tongues have ceased and that all the tongues spoken of in the bible are speaking about a known human language.
I would be happy to debate this if you like.
Secondly, just because something can be copied or mimicked does not necessarily make the original a fake. There are many who purport to be Christians but are not. We could not use this argument to invalidate those who are true Christians.
Well said, Kirk! Typo “in era” –> “in error”.
There is fake tongs (willful babbling, imitating) and there is real tongs (spirit inspired) and there is, so I have heard, demonic tongs (obsession).
I’m not sure what more can be said than what has been offered in the many posts below – it may be easier if you post your reasons for thinking them to be something other than real language(s). Speaking for myself. I approach the issue through the lens of linguistics, not religion (though obviously I refer to various passages and narratives, etc.).
I am neither a so-called ‘cessationist’ nor am I a so-called ‘continuationist’ (never heard the terms until late last year), nor am I an atheist – As far as tongues ‘ceasing’, since Biblical tongues refer to real language(s) in all cases, obviously they have not ceased.
These languages may have been foreign and unknown to those hearing them, but never to the speaker (whose native language it was).
tongs are very useful, especially when cooking bbq
Hi all
Speaking in tongues as per Acts 2.
When you received tongues did you hear the sound of a mighty rushing wind? Did you see cloves like fire rest upon you? Did tongues come immediately/suddenly ? or were you taught how to pray in tongues?
Did any of the people that received the gift of tongues at Pentecost, teach other believers to speak in tongues? Is this biblical.
Does the bible say its for all believers?
If tongues were only for God to hear, why did all in Acts 2 hear in their own language?
If tongues a heavenly language, why must it be interpreted? Why did Jesus give us an example of the Lords pray? no, tongues.
How can one be edified if one does not know what he is saying?
ABOUT THE SIGN GIFTS CEASING
Paul healed in his early ministry, great healing, handkerchiefs, his shadow ect. What happened close to the end of his life?
. And as for the gift of healing, we read of that Paul could not heal himself “thorn in the flesh” ( Gal 4: 13-15) a co-worker of Paul’s, Epaphroditus, who fell seriously ill during this time (Phil. 2:25-30), could not heal Timothy (1 Tim 5:23) , could not heal Trophimus ( 2 Tim 4:20) and Paul no longer had the gift of healing, and was no longer able to heal as he did only a few years earlier in Acts 28:9. The sign gifts were no longer operating at the time that Paul wrote the Prison Epistles.
IS THERE A REASON HE COULD NOT HEAL? OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WHAT WAS SAID IN 1 CORINTHIANS, KNOWLEDGE, PROPHESY AND TONGUES WOULD CEASE?
Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13
“Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
What remained ? Faith Hope and Love
This is what we need today, faith in Jesus Christ, our hope of the Resurrection and LOVE.
When Jesus returns we will only NEED LOVE. WHY because faith and hope are no longer needed as we will be with Christ.
could it be a form of voodoo – i need inof on this matter hun as my frind was using it in myu house and it made me feel uncorftable and i asked her what she was saying – and she said she desont know, ….i watched a vouple of vids on speaking in tonhues and thyey were all in a in a state of confusion……my frinds arm was wtiching as she as spoke in thes tonges…….
Hallo Wendy. There are a lot of religions that have people that speak in tongues. Most notably would be satanist because Lucifer likes to copy God as much as he can. You will have to ask your friend what religion she is. Any satanic religion will mean its not a Godly language. If you believe in and have a relationship with Jesus, simply anoint your home with oil in the name of The Father, The Son(Jesus) and the Holy Spirit to break any curses or spells or whatever evil.
Thank you
Pierre
There is no such thing as a “satanic religion” unless it refers to Satanism proper.
Many of the world’s belief systems/religions make use of glossolalia/tongues; it’s not by far just a Christian phenomenon.
Vodun (a/k/a voodoo) is practiced most notably in Haiti and is derived from indigenous religions of mainly Ghana and Togo. The glossolalia produced is produced no differently than a Christian practitioner.
It sounds as though Wendy’s friend was attempting something of which she had very little knowledge which can be dangerous. As Pierre suggested, if there is some concern; a house blessing can cleanse the house of any negative energies.
Please direct me to where in the bible it states “Heavenly language”? When did Jesus instruct or state you MUST speak in tongues as evidence of the infilling of the spirit to be saved? This is a Pentecostal doctrine and one that started in the early 1900s by Charles Fox Parham. He also believed speaking in tongues to the extent he traveled to another country with the full expectation they would understand him and hear the word of god. No one did. Needless to say he returned to the states dejected but it didn’t stop him preaching his message of speaking in tongues. He is the founding father of modern Pentecostalism and although I recognize and commend followers for their passion, they are being misled by the “infallible” interpretation of the church pastor. Why do so many Pentecostal followers place their faith in one man’s bible interpretation? read if for yourself and decide. Don’t gamble your soul on what someone else believes the bible says and means.
The apostle Paul clearly states at most only 2-3 people should speak in tongues and only when there is someone with the gift of interpretation to translate the message for the benefit of the entire congregation. Otherwise what’s the point? to edify yourself or god? God doesn’t need you to speak in tongues because he understands ALL languages. Logically speaking what would be the point of speaking in tongues if your not glorifying God or spreading the gospel?
Hallo Augustine.
Relevant scripture would be:
1 Corinthians 14:2,23,27-28
1 Corinthians 12:8-11
1 Corinthians 13
1 Corinthians 14
Acts 19:6
Mark 16
1 Corinthians 13:1 speaks of tongues of men and angels. Why is there a distinction if they are the same?
1 Corinthians 14:2 “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit”
How would you explain that?
So how can it be just another earth language if NO one understands them?
Thank you
Pierre
Hallo Augustine
I believe that the Holy Spirit give believers gifts as He wants to as scripture states. No where in the bible does it say you will speak in tongues if you get filled with the Holy Spirit although in some places this seem to happen or get implied. It also don’t specify if it is an earthly language like in Acts 2 or an unknown language as in 1 Corinthians. I know many believers that can speak in tongues and many that can not. In the final paragraph of your post it seems that you 1st accept tongues as a gift and then rejects it. I am not clear on what you believe about tongues is.
Regards
Pierre
Hello Pierre
MY COMMENTS IN CAPITALS
Relevant scripture would be:
1 Corinthians 14:2,23,27-28
1 Corinthians 12:8-11
1 Corinthians 13
1 Corinthians 14
Acts 19:6
Mark 16
1 Corinthians 13:1 speaks of tongues of men and angels. Why is there a distinction if they are the same?
MATHEW 17:20 “ 20“BECAUSEYOU HAVE SO LITTLE FAITH. HE ANSWERED. “FOR TRULY I TELL YOU, IF YOU HAVE FAITH THE SIZE OF A MUSTARD SEED, YOU CAN SAY TO THIS MOUNTAIN, ‘MOVE FROM HERE TO THERE,’AND IT WILL MOVE. NOTHING WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU.” …
PIERRE YOU SHOULD BY NOW HAVE FAITH A LITTLE GREATER THAN A MUSTARD SEED ? IF SO, MOVE A MOUNTAIN, CAN YOU ??
1 Corinthians 14:2 “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit” How would you explain that? So how can it be just another earth language if NO one understands them?
PIERRE IN CORINTH WAS A REGION OF MULTI CULTURAL POPULATION. IF I AM IN A CONGREGATION AND I SPEAK IN PORTUGUESE, NO GREEK WOULD UNDERSTAND ME, BUT HERE GOES GOD WOULD UNDERSTAN ME, WHY ? GOD KNOWS ALL LANGUAGES
ONE OF THE FIRST QUESTIONS YOU OUGHT TO ASK IS, “WAS IT ADDRESSED TO MEN?” SOMETIMES TODAY, WHEN INTERPRETATIONS ARE GIVEN, THE CONTENT MAKES CLEAR THAT THEY CONSTITUTE A KIND OF EXHORTATION TO THE AUDIENCE. WELL THEN, THAT IS NOT THE GIFT OF TONGUES, BECAUSE, ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD, TONGUES ARE NOT ADDRESSED TO MEN.
Thank you
Mario
Hi, in Mark 16 Jesus did say that ‘these signs shall follow them that believe’ and listed the signs. Jesus didn’t speak in ifs, buts and maybes. Some Christians take Jesus at His word and believe ALL the signs are for ALL believers. Church historians note that there were church leaders who loved to have pre-eminence and denigrated and/or banned any gifts that they themselves didn’t have.
On the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2 it seems that ALL the 120 disciples (not just apostles) spoke in tongues. This would imply the spiritual gifts including tongues were for ALL believers.
Another scripture that would confirm this line of thinking is 1 Corinthians 14:1 where the Apostle Paul encouraged individuals and the church to cultivate ALL the gifts.
14:1 Eagerly pursue and seek to acquire [this] love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts), especially that you may prophesy ([a]interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching). AMPLIFIED BIBLE.
The tongues of angels could be understood as a heavenly language if you look at these Bible translations/paraphrases.
13:1 If I had the gift of being able to speak in other languages without learning them and could speak in every language there is in all of HEAVEN and earth, but didn’t love others, I would only be making noise. THE LIVING BIBLE
13:1 What if I speak in the most elegant languages of people or in the exotic languages of the HEAVENLY messengers, but I live without love? THE VOICE
You are right, there are certainly different ways of looking at, and explaining, the meaning of scriptures and I don’t think the Pentecostal movement has any one dominant leader as there are so many groups. Plus the rise of the Pentecostals isn’t isolated to the 1900s if you read about Holy Ghost revivals and renewals in history. It is also a part of the Reformation that rejected the teachings of a certain denomination that had become corrupt.
I will write something too, for encouragement to others; When I was in the Healing Rooms. They are established in many countries. I got there a huge encouragement in the form of exact words from a song I was, at the time, listening to a lot- beautiful lyrics. Words very poetic, comparing me to a certain flower and more. You know, they pray for you in the H.Rooms in tongues, they first pray in tongues and then they stop and say what they discerned from God as they prayed for me, then they consult with you and try to determine what is the spiritual problem with you. I think this relevant to this topic. :-)
I think you may have heard a teaching on tongues that strays from biblical orthodoxy. Someone familiar with bible doctrine, specifically as it relates to “glossolalia” (speaking in tongues) and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, is not at all surprised with the results of the peer reviewed research you cited above. My goal here is not to argue against these findings, but to show that they are supported by scripture, and to perhaps give you a more complete understanding of what the Bible has to say on this topic so you can examine it more thoroughly. First, it is a common misunderstanding among “cessasionists” (christians who believes tongues ceased in the 1st century) and skeptics that tongues are only supposed to be known human languages. The assumption is that what happened on the Day of Pentecost is what people should expect when speaking in tongues, and the truth is, what happened on the day of Pentecost is very different from what most people are experiencing today when they speak in tongues. In truth, there are five different kinds/purposes of tongues in the Bible. Paul the apostle writes in his first letter to the Corinthians, “If I speak with the tongues of men or of angels…” (1 Cor 13:1). See, in the bible, not all “tongues” are known human lanaguages. Infact, most of the time, when people speak in tongues, they are speaking in what christians would call their “heavenly language” or their “prayer language.” This is what Paul referred to as “tongues of angels.” It is atypical for people who speak in tongues to speak in a known human language, unless the person has the ministry gift of speaking in tongues, or in other very rare circumstances. I personally know of two occasions where this happened. Once was when a former pastor and church acquaintence of mine went to New Orleans after hurricane Katrina to help rebuild. One day while they were there, before starting, they began to pray, and one of them began praying in a tongue. One of the locals happened to overhear the prayer and immediately approached them, complimented the person for speaking perfect Creole, and began asking them questions about God. On another occasion, during a church service that another one of my pastors oversaw, a man began speaking in a strange language that sounded bizarre, almost like animal noises. A woman stood up in the back and asked how it was possible that this man could speak in a language known only to members of a small village in Africa where she was from. Again, it is far more common for someone to speak in an unknown heavenly language than it is for them to speak in a known human language. Praying in those unknown languages is the most common. See Rom 8:26 and Jude 20.
Also, in 1st Cor 14, when Paul says, tongues are a sign for unbelievers, he was talking about tongues WITH interpretation. He was correcting the Corinthians for their overuse of the spiritual gifts. Their error was in failing to understand the purpose of spiritual gifts, which is the edificaiton or building up of the church. I copied the passage below.
1 Cor 14: 1-25
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
To paraphrase what he teaches in that chapter, he basically says, “Stop with all this misuse of the gift of tongues. All people hear is a bunch of babbling and it makes you look ridiculous. No one can understand what you’re saying, so the only person that benefits from you speaking in tongues all the time is you. That’s wrong. From now on, if you do speak out in tongues in front of others, someone must be present who has the gift of interpretation. Then everyone will benefit from the message that gets spoken. In this way, tongues WITH interpretation is similar to prophecy, so when a new person shows up who doesn’t know about any of this, they will believe, because the very secrets of his/her heart will be revealed, and the spiritual message that is spoken will touch them in a profound way.”
So, the same misuse of the gift of tongues that was happening in the 1st century is still happening today. That is why it appears so utterly ridiculous to you, and it should. There is much more I could speak about regarding tongues, but again, my goal is not to argue with you or give you a sermon. I only wanted to bring clarity on two points, so that you can consider what the Bible has to say, and re-examine the topic in light of that.
Your Friend,
Bill
Pentecostal Christian
lay minister and Bible College Student
Paul’s “tongues of angels” is a hyperbole – it is not something that was ever meant to be taken literally.
Tongues fail on every criteria that defines language and multiple “interpretations” for the same glossic string further illustrate that tongues fail even as basic communication. Modern tongues are non-cognitive non-language utterances; free vocalization; they mimic language but upon closer examination, they are simply a facade of language.
All Biblical tongues (if not referring to the actual organ in the mouth) refer to real languages; they may be unknown to the those listening to them (the ‘hearers’) but they are always known by the speaker(s).
To paraphrase the chapter – if you’re speaking your native language at a public gathering and no one else there speaks/understands it, it’s preferable that you pray that you will (eventually) learn enough Greek to translate it yourself (into Greek – the language of Corinth), but in the meantime, you have two choices: use a translator so all may benefit from what you’re saying, but if no one present knows your language well enough to translate into Greek for you, it’s better you just keep silent so as not to add to or create more confusion.
“Tongues” have not ceased – they’re just normal everyday languages.
Ignore the post above (posted 15:49 – I was still writing when it posted. See below
Kavik said: Paul’s “tongues of angels” is a hyperbole – it is not something that was ever meant to be taken literally.
Kavik, you state your opinions as though they are ‘categorically correct’. They are merely opinions. Believe that and you might consider others’ opinions also.
Marchello, of course, everything I say is my opinion, what else could it be? It is not like we are discussion maths here where there is some absolute notion of truth. I think it does not help the discussion if we have to prefix each sentence by “It is my opinion that”.
Perhaps this is true of cessationists (I’m not a cessationist, neither am I a continualist – sp.?). Biblical tongues have not stopped because they are real languages. Pentecost describes xenoglossy, but if you see my comments further below, I don’t think that was at all the case.
Today’s modern tongues are non-cognitive non-language utterances – free vocalization.
There are no ‘heavenly languages’ / ‘tongues of angels’ – Paul was using hyperbole in that verse (as well as many other verses in his letter).
It’s atypical for people who speak in tongues to speak in a known human language because tongues are not language; they’re NC-NLU’s. Modern tongues fail as language on every criteria that defines ‘language’. Due to their multiple ‘interpretations’ for the same glossic string, they fail even by the criteria which defines basic communication. There has, unfortunately, never been a documented case of xenoglossy in modern times; it always seems to be third hand reporting.
A sign for unbelievers – people speaking about God in their own languages with translators rendering what they are saying into the vernacular so all can benefit. Prior to Pentecost, for such teaching, praising, worship, etc. to be done in any language except Hebrew was virtually unthinkable (ecclesiastical diglossia – see various posts below).
What Paul advises in the chapter is simple – if you’re going to show up at a public worship and, during worship, not speak in the vernacular (in the case of Corinth, Greek), something which in a multi-cultural and linguistically diverse city such as Corinth was probably quite common, you should pray that (eventually) you’ll learn enough Greek to be able to translate what you’re saying so all may benefit, but in the meantime you had two choices: either find someone who can translate for you, or, if there isn’t anyone who knows your language well enough to do so, rather than add to the confusion, it’s better you just keep silent.
All references to tongues in the Bible, if not referring to the physical organ, refer to real language(s). These languages may not always be understood by those listening to them (the ‘hearers’), but they are always known to the speaker(s).
There just isn’t anything in Corinthians that can be construed as not a reference to real language(s).
Kavik, I really like your thoughtful posts, but I cannot agree that Paul speaks of real languages in Corinthians 14 when we read “tongues” there. I’d agree that glossolalia are not real languages, but free vocalization. This does not contradict that there are people that interpret them. It is just not a “interpretation” (neither a literal one nor an interpretation in the literal sense), but it is a prayer/prophetic word that is triggered/inspired by someone else’s prayer in tongues. This matches with the study you quote that for one recording of glossolalia one get’s 100 different “interpretations” from 100 different interpreters. I do not see a difference between glossolalia and the “tongues” of the New Testament.
Corinthians 14 makes more sense if you translate “tongues” with “glossolalia” than with “foreign languages”. For instance, if Paul says in verse 2, “for anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no-one understands him” (NIV). This is true of glossolalia, but not of a language that is not Hebrew/Greek. (Well, it could be true if there is just exactly one person for each language—let’s not go into such absurd constructions.) Or, verse 5, “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues”. Why would Paul say that if not “tongues” were a spiritual activity that “edifies” (V.4)? Why would it be important for the Church members to speak foreign languages?, and that being compared to “prophesying” which is definitely a spiritual activity of high esteem in the Bible. Why should people “pray that (eventually)” they “learn enough Greek to be able to translate”, instead of finding a teacher for the Greek language? As if Paul believed that knowledge of the Greek language needs heavenly revelation instead of sitting down and learning the vocabulary!? However, authentic interpretation of glossolalia is by inspiration; you cannot study it in school, it needs to come from “outside” (God)! (Or shall I say “inside” (the Spirit)?)
My mother used to do this during my teenage years. Looking back, it was creepy and disturbing. I am thankful that my adolescent surliness and innate contempt for superstition insulated me from the effects. I can imagine how this sort of narcissistic fantasizing and acting out in a parent could cause some damage to a child.
Many people who speak with tongues do indeed speak in a foreign language such as Latin, German, Spanish, and people who are present who speak and understand that language do know what they’re saying. Unfortunately it sounds like you’ve been exposed to some counterfeits.
There are,unfortunately, no provable cases of xenoglossy as you describe. It would seem easy enough to prove. If such a thing were to happen, why have both parties involved never pursued it further – if for no other reason than to prove to the “nay-sayers” that something is indeed happening here. It’s never been done. Why does it only happen in Pentecostal/Charismatic settings where belief in tongues is prevalent? Surely in a dire situation where communication was critical, it wouldn’t matter what religion both parties were.
Most cases seem to report examples of where it “sounded like” language “X”, same intonation, same tone, etc” – sounded like or definitely was?? Does the one reporting the occurrence know enough of “language X ” to determine if it definitely was or did it just “sound like it” – I tend to think 99% of the time it’s the latter.
That appears to be a genuine study with genuine results. I’m sad to hear you are not a believer anymore. I do not speak with tongues, but I think SOME people genuinely have the gift, although the least of gifts unless they interpret. I’m sold out for Jesus because he died for me and now I get to go to heaven and not hell. I hope you reconsider. -Wayne-
Of course the light doesn’t mean anything to one who doesn’t want to see…those who believe will believe, those who do not believe will not believe…
Sorry I had bo backround or exposure. When I was in my room crying out to the creator of the universe I began to communicate to the invisible God with utterance I had never known. I just knew I was talking to The Creator and that It was amazing. Many signs followed in my life and have ever since. My whole heart, nature, direction changed. I began a relationship with Hearing direction and instruction for everthing in my life. Sometimes for others. Each time, even still it is matched with evidence and reality. Hearing followed by amazing impossibilities. It doesnt matter to me if you believe. But in the same way you could never convince me that my Mother does not exsist, jyst because you have not met her does not have any power to make her untrue. Seeking His Face and Loving/crying out for the Truth has taken me past the barriers of man made religion. I encourage anyone to start there.
I heard there was some research where they sent 100 copies of the same tongues recording to a whole lot of people who said they had the gift of interpretation. Anyone know where I can get hold of that research?
Taken from parts of my study – you can try and Google these names to see if you can come up with an online copy of the original research:
There have been numerous studies done (Samarin (1968), Pattison (1968), Wehr (1996), just to reference a few) which have revealed some damning results and major discrepancies with respect to the interpretation of glossolalia.
In these studies, a string of glossolalia is recorded and played back to several people who are able to interpret tongues. It is a blind test such that interpreters are purposely not grouped all together but kept separate from one another – the idea here is so that each may offer his/her own interpretation without the possible influence from another interpreter. Interpretations given in these instances were quite inconsistent. In one study, they ranged from praying for the health of someone’s children, to praising God for a recent successful church fund-raising event. No two have ever been remotely similar to one another other than that fact that they were either praise related or message related (but never the same underlying “core” message).
One study, conducted by a Frenchman in the late 1990’s, went so far as to present two samples to interpreters; one being a recorded sample of glossolalia obtained at a church service, the other being simply the Pater Noster recited twice through in a very broad Scots. Needless to say, interpretations were offered for both samples (much to the dismay of the Scotsman who recorded the “Oor Faither”).
Some “studies” are less than ‘scientifically conducted’ – Kevin Tierney in his article “Musings on the Charismatic Movement” writes; “I remember another story communicated by the Catholic apologist Gerry M. One time he went to one of these Charismatic sessions, where people were speaking in tongues. Gerry, in his rather typical playful mood, decided to have a little fun. He arose, and spoke in tongues. Those tongues were Old Testament verses in Hebrew, since Mr. M is quite proficient in both Greek and Hebrew. When it came time for prophesy, the “interpretation” didn’t resemble what was spoken in any particular way. While I’m not focusing on the issue of tongue speaking just yet, this is proof right here that the person has no clue whatsoever if what they are hearing is from God. It could simply be made up, and nobody is anymore the wiser. The chance for this fakery only increases when it’s mandated at the beginning that prophesy will, and one could say, must occur, for them to be satisfied that the Holy Spirit is working through them.”
It’s not uncommon to hear such fleshly interpretations in church services either. The Bible gives some clear guidelines for how to determine if an interpretation is authentic or not. For one, the interpretation would not be a message from God to the congregation, but rather a prayer spoken to God by the person speaking in the tongue. Tongues is not God speaking in an unknown language to us, but rather us, speaking in an unknown language to God. Someone who speaks out in a church service with an interpretation like those would/should be corrected.
Best Regards,
Bill
Pentecostal Christian
Lay Minister
Bible College Student
Scripture goes further to say, “So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that your are mad?
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is not interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.”
– (1 Corinthians 14:22-28)
Very briefly, I went to my church for prayer for my broken heart as being mistreated as a step-daughter by my step-father. I didn’t tell the three people that prayed for me what was wrong. In fact, they saw me praying alone as I silently entertained false narratives of my situation in my head leading me to spiral down in a negative, emotional pit hoping that I could somehow get over it. Within moments, I heard them pray in tongues (I had no idea what they were saying and it didn’t make sense to me nor was it helping me), but then one woman translated and said that I was a broken-hearted step-daughter and that God wanted to show me His Fatherly love and replace the orphan spirit with His. I’ve never cried so hard at that moment in a church before.
It wasn’t the fact that they knew what my main issue was that had me crying (thought, as a believer that was a miraculous sign to me), but the fact that they allowed themselves to be a working vessel for God, I felt and heard God’s voice through them. His love touched me and I am thankful to this day that they allowed Him to work through them and do His will.
I hope this helps with your exegesis and hermeneutics claims considering this topic. It’s best to read the content around the verse to get a better understanding of its context and I would encourage you to keep asking questions.
If you’re looking for evidence of speaking in tongues being more than babbling nonsense, consider it’s main purpose: healing and deliverance.
I would consider this an example of the (I really hesitate to use the term “correct” here, but for a lack of a better way to put it…..) correct use of glosolalia, i.e. as a *tool* to aid in the (emotional/spiritual) healing process of a third party.
The important thing to note is that the person being helped/healed is typically a third party; not the practitioner him/her/them self/selves.
In these instances glossolalia is used as a tool to connect to the divine (whether realized it’s simply the tool may be a matter for debate), a message received (either directly or indirectly via an “interpreter”) that is extremely pertinent to this third party’s emotional situation and, as a result, s/he may begin the process of emotional/spiritual healing. This is the purpose of glossolalia in most cultures, i.e. to aid the petitioner in the emotional and/or spiritual healing process.
Though this does happen in the context of Christianity, from all accounts I have read or been told about, this “true/correct” use of glossolalia is a rather rare occurrence. Whether it is rare because most people do not practice glossolalia ‘correctly’ or not, is a matter for further study, but this is a great example of how glossolaia is properly used.
That’s a wonderful testimony! That was tongues and prophecy as opposed to tongues with interpretation. The bible says when we do not know what to pray, the spirit intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. They didn’t know how to pray, because your pain was hidden from them, but they were stirred in their spirit and they prayed in tongues, perhaps not even knowing they were praying for you… but despite not knowing what to pray, the Spirit helped them in their weakness. Then God gave a word of knowledge with a word of prophecy to the person who spoke to you and told you what your problem was (word of knowledge) and what God was going to do for you (word of prophecy). That is a wonderful testimony! It’s super encouraging! Hold onto that and share as often as you have the opportunity!
Best Regards,
Bill
Your brother in Christ
You might be interested in my new book, The Case Against Tongues: Weighing Up the Evidence. It’s free on Smashwords and other online book stores.
I speak (and write) multiple languages – English, Chinese, Japanese and Malay. I can easily ‘speak in tongues’ in any church service instead of faking it.
Hi why would you speak another known language , that not being the language everyone steaks ? Most tongues spoken today are not earthly languages
Religion are at most 70% correct and 30% wrong. While Christianity is not 100% infallible, it is so far the best of all.
Quite interesting. I was a christian for a long time in my life and started to doubt a lot, especially when I saw the rebuttals of a lot of christian apologist videos, scientific explanations for the “unexplainable” and the theory of evolution. This is a really good refutation, today I heard a story from a friend of mine, who is a catholic, that his father and him were in the church and saw a girl that spoke in tongues, precisely in aramaic and his father studied aramaic for a long time in his life(so that´s how he recognised the language) and he said that the girl was 8 years old and she never knew what was aramaic nor her parents and she wasn´t used to access the internet; and so I had to research and see it, and that´s when I found your article, thanks! Now, I would like your help with these doubts I currently have. I was really confused today because of this story but I´m gradually becoming more skeptical. For example, I can´t see evil in masturbating or being gay(I´m not, by the way), like… why would God bother, you know? Anyways… THX A LOT! And kepp it up! Really apreciate it. Oh , by the way, support HitNail youtube channel, it was mostly because of his refutation to a young earth creationist that I became an atheist(or almost, I still have some doubts, so I´m for now an agnostic)
@Alekcey
An interesting story –
To restate, just for the record, I am not an atheist nor a so-called “cessationist” (never heard of the term until just this year). I’m not discouraging the practice of tongues, just the understanding of what it is. What Christian practitioners claim it is, it simply is not.
To your point –
This story is one version of many that are told. It’s sort of attained “urban legend” status in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles. The basic story line goes like this: in a gathering (church service, tent meeting, etc., etc.) some person starts speaking in tongues and there just happens to be this one person in the crowd to recognizes it as a real language and asks the speaker or tells the speaker about it and, of course, the speaker has no clue and has never heard or been exposed to the language they were supposedly speaking.
Coincidentally, the language almost *always* seems to be Aramaic and there’s *always* someone in the crowd who just happens to either speak it, or studied it, etc.and recognizes it as such. In most versions of the story, the person that recognizes it is a Jewish person (i.e. practicing Jew) to just happens to recognize the language. This begs a slew of questions, the least of which is why a practicing Jew would be attending a Pentecostal?charismatic service in the first place, Was it Aramaic, or did it just ‘sound’ like Aramaic. What languages in any form or no matter how infrequent was this girl exposed to? Typically glossolalia only contains those sounds found in a speaker’s own native language. If that language is English, Aramaic contains several sounds not found in English.
I don’t mean to cast doubts. While in theory, yes, it’s a possibility, cases like this (which seem to be rather common in Pentecostal?charismatic circles) are never backed up by any solid proof and amounts to, unfortunately, just hearsay. It would be a relatively simple thing to prove either way. It’s too bad as a solid case would be fantastic to study and could theoretically lay some groundwork for further study!
Actually I became a christian again, so.. nevermind lol
Just forget everyhting I said about being skeptical.
As a young girl, I prayed every night for the gift of tongues. Eventually crying myself to sleep because God had forsaken me took its place. Now I am a grown woman, no-longer-Southern-Pentecostal, practicing Buddhist. I thought you might want to read about studies done more recently than almost 50 years ago. While I have many issues with certain conclusions, the science is fascinating and for me, was very surprising. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html
Yeah, this is the well-known study done by the Univ. of Pen. I’ve read it; the results are very inconclusive and could be skewed to support either argument. I would argue that the language producing centers of the brain are not all that engaged in the production of glossolalia or “speaking in tongues”, simply because it’s not language; it’s random free vocalization. You don’t have to think about what you’re doing like language, you just do it. A bit like humming a random made-up tune; you don’t think about what you’re humming/singing, you just do it.
Yes it is meaningless to those who hear and cannot translate, just as the Bible state. Fact 1. It is not unknown to God, just as the Bible states. . Fact 2. So ask God if He understands tongues and you can confirm this.
Biblical “tongues” are, in fact, real languages – on Pentecost, Aramaic and Greek, and in Corinth various languages due to the city being a multicultural port city on two seas. So, in that respect, even if other people could not understand the (real) language used by the speaker, God certainly could. Modern ‘tongues’/glossolalia is not real language – glossolalia/tongues mimics language, but is just a facade of language. In and of itself it is meaningless – simply random free vocalization.
You might be interested in my new book, The Case Against Tongues: Weighing Up the Evidence. It’s free on Smashwords and other online book stores. I’m a new author and looking for people who might be interested in this topic. If you do read it, I’d love to hear what you think.
I enjoy praying in tongues. It has been for at least 5 years. I found this article very informative. Thank you for writing this.
Hay Darryl, please do not stop praying in tongues.
Some “skeptical” believe they can explain God in a scientific way.
Using fancy words to persuade/deceive Believers into thinking Christianity is a false religion.
You are experiencing the Holy Spirit’s power when praying in tongues. What a Blessing, what Joy.
Do not believe in the Words of man. Believe the Words of God. (in that way you will never be deceived)
1 Corinthians 1:18
“The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.”
Sorry, the bible was written by hundreds of different HUMAN MEN throughout the last 1,650 years, making it the words of MEN, with absolutely zero evidence it came from “God”
I can prove it is
If you’ll study this out… what happened at Pentecost was the voice of many people or waters. They heard the message in the language of those that spoke, but understood it in their own native tongue. I agree with you 100% that what is going on now is foolishness… it is witchcraft. Another disagreement I have with that letter (Acts) is that they do one thing but give reference to Joel of the old testament which mentions nothing of tongues.
See my posts of 18. May re tongues at Pentecost – simply Aramaic and Greek spoken by the Apostles instead of the more culturally correct (and expected ) Hebrew. Apostles spoke both Greek and Aramaic.
John what you wrote is short but excellent and to the point. You are a clear and excellent thinker/teacher for that reason we hope you Skype, we want to meet you and talk to you face to face. We live in Argentina at the tip of South America. But we can meet and converse for FREE using Skype. Our Skype address is: patagoniaratajczaks
please do studu the second epistle of paul to the chuch at corinth the 14th chapter
You might be interested in my new book, The Case Against Tongues: Weighing Up the Evidence. It’s free on Smashwords and other online book stores. I’m a new author and looking for people who might be interested in this topic. If you do read it, I’d love to hear what you think.
Hello my name is michelle .my mom used to try to make me speak in toungs .not for me .i also think its from the devil .and she is crazy .judjumental.greedy unforgiving but thinks she is so rightouss .and says the devil made her that way…. I aak God to hell me forgive her. And try to move forwatd and have A relationship .it’s so hard
Hello Michelle. Your mom can not make you speak in tongues. It is a gift from the Holy Spirit as is healing, prophesy and many others. The Holy Spirit give them to whom He wants and sometimes for certain occasions. As you can see from my and Mario’s discussions there are many different views regarding the Gifts of the Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness is unfortunately totally up to us but the Holy Spirit will assist you since He lives in born again believers.
My daughter have a favourite saying when somebody hurts her or a friends feelings….’build a bridge and get over it’. In my opinion that is pretty much how forgiveness works. We live in a broken world with broken people and we will get people that hurt, disappoint, backstab and do numerous other things to us as long as we live this life. We will also do this to others even unintentionally. I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit will assist you in forgiving her but also pray for her for understanding of what she is doing wrong to upset and offend you.
You can also explain to your mom that a born again christian is suppose to become more like Jesus the longer you are in a relationship with Him. You will always be sinfull and do sin but it should become less as the Holy Spirit helps you resist it. Idealy you should see an improvement yearly on what you use to do and what you do at the end of that year.
Regards
Pierre
I must respectfully disagree with Pierre with respect to tongues – unfortunately from what I have seen and from what I have read from various people, “tongues” can indeed be a forced experience. People put in a situation where they are more or less forced to speak something….anything, so long as it doesn’t sound like English (or whatever the person’s native language is). It seems in many cases to be peer pressure at it’s absolute worse case scenario. It sounds like you have perhaps unfortunately undergone a similar situation.
Hallo Kavik. I have to agree with you. Huge damage is unfortunately done by religious people making speaking in tongues a proof of the Holy Spirit’s infilling and trying to make other christians speak in tongues. I was trying to say that to Michelle” Your mom can not make you speak in tongues”. I see speaking in tongues as one of the many gifts of the Holy Spirit that He gives to who He wants when and as He wants. Not everyone gets the same gifts or all of them.
I hope I explained it better.
Regards
Pierre
Ah, okay – now i get it – thanks for the clarification.
Hallo Mario. I will be out of town till 19 June. We can chat again when I am back.
Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
These signs shall accompany THOSE WHO BELIEVE….. in my book that means all True christians…
Regards
Pierre
Enjoy your time out.
Firstly my correction there is I believe 600 million “Christians” that speak in tongue.
1) Firstly the old manuscripts have not got Mark 16: 9-20. Interesting but even so if it is correct lets look at verse 13 they did not believe, verse 14 Jesus rebuked them for not believing them that told them, verse 15 Jesus said to them .. verse 17 and these signs will accompany those that believe… Now who were the unbelievers the Apostles themselves as they were even rebuked by Jesus. Verse 7 interesting tell the disciples and Peter, why and Peter he is the one that denied Jesus 3 times.
2) If everyone did all the above signs then there would be telling the difference between the apostles and ordinary people.2 Corinthians 12:12 ….. demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIRACLES.
3) So if these signs are for today WHY do the tongue speaking people NOT also heal people ? If it is for today then that person should have able to do all what the signs, not just the easiest one to counterfeit.
So if verse were not in the bible as it was not in the earliest translations, would one still think that they can do these signs? even after the word says they will cease? If they did not cease when will the cease ?
Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:” If everyone could do the signs miracles and wonders WOULD IT MEAN ANYTHING ? NO , it had be something special.
Acts 2:43, “Fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles [not through the Christians in general].”
Acts 5:12, “Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles [not by the hands of all the Christians].”
Acts 14:3, “So they [Paul and Barnabas] remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”
Acts 15:12, “And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles [as though this were something remarkable, not something being done daily by average Christians].”
So it looks like Luke intends for us to see signs and wonders in the book of Acts as having a special role in the ministry of the apostles. This suggests that neither then nor today were signs and wonders intended to be a normal part of church ministry or evangelism. They were intended to vindicate the authority of the APOSTLES AND JESUS.
Hallo Mario.
Here is another example of my point:
1 Corinthians 12:12-31…12 Brothers and sisters, I want you to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. 2 You know that at one time you were unbelievers. You were somehow drawn away to worship statues of gods that couldn’t even speak. 3 So I want you to know that no one who is speaking with the help of God’s Spirit says, “May Jesus be cursed.” And without the help of the Holy Spirit no one can say, “Jesus is Lord.”
4 There are different kinds of gifts. But they are all given to believers by the same Spirit. 5 There are different ways to serve. But they all come from the same Lord. 6 There are different ways the Spirit works. But the same God is working in all these ways and in all people.
7 The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all. 8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.
12 There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body. It is the same with Christ. 13 We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free people. We were all given the same Spirit to drink. 14 So the body is not made up of just one part. It has many parts.
15 Suppose the foot says, “I am not a hand. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 16 And suppose the ear says, “I am not an eye. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, how could it hear? If the whole body were an ear, how could it smell? 18 God has placed each part in the body just as he wanted it to be. 19 If all the parts were the same, how could there be a body? 20 As it is, there are many parts. But there is only one body.
21 The eye can’t say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 In fact, it is just the opposite. The parts of the body that seem to be weaker are the ones we can’t do without. 23 The parts that we think are less important we treat with special honor. The private parts aren’t shown. But they are treated with special care. 24 The parts that can be shown don’t need special care. But God has put together all the parts of the body. And he has given more honor to the parts that didn’t have any. 25 In that way, the parts of the body will not take sides. All of them will take care of one another. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it. If one part is honored, every part shares in its joy.
27 You are the body of Christ. Each one of you is a part of it. 28 First, God has placed apostles in the church. Second, he has placed prophets in the church. Third, he has placed teachers in the church. Then he has given to the church miracles and gifts of healing. He also has given the gift of helping others and the gift of guiding the church. God also has given the gift of speaking in different kinds of languages. 29 Is everyone an apostle? Is everyone a prophet? Is everyone a teacher? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in languages they had not known before? Do all explain what is said in those languages? 31 But above all, you should want the more important gifts.
I can keep giving you scripture that includes every believer in getting gifts, but different ones as the Holy Spirit deems necessary.
Please give me 1 scripture that sais gifts are ONLY for prophets.
Regards
Pierre
Hallo Mario.
As per your previous answer:
1) Firstly the old manuscripts have not got Mark 16: 9-20. Interesting but even so if it is correct lets look at verse 13 they did not believe, verse 14 Jesus rebuked them for not believing them that told them, verse 15 Jesus said to them .. verse 17 and these signs will accompany those that believe… Now who were the unbelievers the Apostles themselves as they were even rebuked by Jesus. Verse 7 interesting tell the disciples and Peter, why and Peter he is the one that denied Jesus 3 times.
2) If everyone did all the above signs then there would be telling the difference between the apostles and ordinary people.2 Corinthians 12:12 ….. demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIRACLES.
3) So if these signs are for today WHY do the tongue speaking people NOT also heal people ? If it is for today then that person should have able to do all what the signs, not just the easiest one to counterfeit.
So if verse were not in the bible as it was not in the earliest translations, would one still think that they can do these signs? even after the word says they will cease? If they did not cease when will the cease ?
Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:” If everyone could do the signs miracles and wonders WOULD IT MEAN ANYTHING ? NO , it had be something special.
Acts 2:43, “Fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles [not through the Christians in general].”
Acts 5:12, “Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles [not by the hands of all the Christians].”
Acts 14:3, “So they [Paul and Barnabas] remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”
Acts 15:12, “And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles [as though this were something remarkable, not something being done daily by average Christians].”
So it looks like Luke intends for us to see signs and wonders in the book of Acts as having a special role in the ministry of the apostles. This suggests that neither then nor today were signs and wonders intended to be a normal part of church ministry or evangelism. They were intended to vindicate the authority of the APOSTLES AND JESUS.
You can not assume according to what 600 million christian’s do or don’t do what the Holy Spirit can or can not do. How many of those 600 million do you personally know and know form personal experience what they can and can not do?
If you actually read my previous bible quote you will see that the Holy Spirit give to believers what, when and where He wants.
And everything will cease – even this earth we live on. There will be no need for any spiritual gifts in heaven or the new earth.
Regards Pierre
hi Pierre
Please give me 1 scripture that sais gifts are ONLY for prophets.
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT MARK 16. IF WE SAY IT IS FOR ALL BELIEVERS EVEN TODAY THEN WE HAVE A PROBLEM, DO YOU AND I HEAL AT WILL WITH THE SIGN GIFT OF HEALING?
EXPLAINED BELOW, PLEASE SEE MARK 16:9-20 SUMMARY, IN SHORT IF IT IS STILL FOR EVERY BELIEVER TODAY, WHY BELIEVERS NOT HAVING THE GIFT OF SPEAKING IN NUMEROUS EARTHLY LANGAUGES AND HEALING PEOPLE INSTANTLY ?
You can not assume according to what 600 million christian’s do or don’t do what the Holy Spirit can or can not do. How many of those 600 million do you personally know and know form personal experience what they can and can not do?
MARK 16: SAYS ALL THAT BELIEVE CAN DO ALL THESE THINGS. SO HAVE THE 600 MILION CHRISTIANS BELIEVERS THESE GIFTS, IF NOT ARE THEY “UNBELIEVERS” ? AS THEY DO NOT HAVE THE GIFT.
I TRIED TO FIND HOW MANY CHRISTIANS SPEAK IN TONGUES AND AN ARTICLE SAID I QUOTE “Today, there are more than 600 million charismatic-Pentecostal believers worldwide, the second-largest group of Christians after Catholics. Pentecostals and charismatic churches are by no means a small, fringe movement; on the contrary, they form the fastest-growing religious movement in the world. The gift of tongues is not reserved for a select few.”
I AM NOT SAYING THAT WE KNOW WHO DO OR DO NOT, THE POINT I WAS MAKING WAS THAT YOU MENTIONED IN EARLIER COMMENT THAT SO MANY TONGUE SPEAKING CHRISTIANS CAN NOT BE WRONG. YOUR QUOTE ”You are saying that hundreds of thousands of Christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong”.
SO I HAD MENTIONED 60 MILLION. SO I AM CORRECTING IT AS THERE ARE SO MANY MORE.
If you actually read my previous bible quote you will see that the Holy Spirit give to believers what, when and where He wants.
CORRECT MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS ALSO SAYS THE SAME. NOT ALL GET SPEAKING IN TONGUES (WHY THE CHURCHES PRAYING FOR PEOPLE TO RECEIVE TONGUES? IS IT NOT A GIFT GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT AS HE WILLS?) NOT ALL GET THE SAME GIFT. NOT EVERYONE IS THE FOOT, OR EYE,OR NECK ECT.
And everything will cease – even this earth we live on. There will be no need for any spiritual gifts in heaven or the new earth.
YES EVERY THING MAY CEASE BUT THERE ARE THINGS THAT CEASE IN STAGES. GOOD EXAMPLE IS US GETTING OLDER AND DYING. JESUS GENERATION HAS CEASED. SO WHEN WE READ THAT THE SIGN GIFTS OF TONGUES, PROPHECY AND KNOWLEDGE WILL COME TO AN END ? WHAT REMAINED ? FAITH HOPE LOVE. SO AFTER THESE WHAT REMAINS L O V E WHICH REMAINS FOREVER.
Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
These signs shall accompany THOSE WHO BELIEVE….. in my book that means all True christians… You can not assume according to what 600 million christian’s do or don’t do what the Holy Spirit can or can not do. How many of those 600 million do you personally know and know form personal experience what they can and can not do?
YOU SAID THAT THESE SIGNS ARE FOR EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES, SO THEN THESE SIGNS SHOULD ACCOMPANY ALL WHO BELIEVES IN THE GOSPAL ? IF WE ARE OUT PREACHING THE GOSPAL THESE SIGNS SHOULD BE PRESENT. ARE YOU AS A TONGUE SPEAKER EXPERIENCING THESE GIFTS ?
ARE YOU HEALING THE SICK WITH IMMEDIATEL RESULTS OR ANYONE IN YOUR CHURCH?
CAN A SICK BROTHER IN HOSPITAL JUST CALL A GIFTED BROTHER AND HE WILL WALK OUT OF THE HOSPITAL IMMEDIATLY? WHAT A TESTOMONEY FOR THE WORLD TO SEE, BELIEVERS WALKING OUT OF THEIR SICK BEDS AND HOSPITALS.
IS IT NOT AMASING THAT THROUGH THE LAST 2000 YEARS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONVERTED BELIEVING THE WORD OF GOD, AND NON OF THESE SIGNS SEEM TO HAVE APPEARED OR FOLLOWED THEM ?
IF THE VERSES ARE CORRECT TO YOUR INTERPRETATION, SHOULD THESE SIGNS NOT BE EVERYWHERE?
DO THE “BORN AGAIN” BELIEVERS IN YOUR FELLOWSHIP HAVE THESE SIGN GIFTS ? DO YOU HAVE THE SIGN GIFTS ? ARE ALL BEING HEALED AROUND YOU, ARE YOU ALL SPEAKING IN NEW TONGUE(S) MANY DIFFERENT EARTHLY LANGUAGES, ARE YOU CASTING OUT DEMONS ECT.ECT.
THESE VERSES IN MARK 16:9-20 TO ME ARE NOT ORIGIONAL, THEY SHOULD NOT BE THERE. EVEN IF THEY ARE THERE AND IF YOU READ MY LAST COMMENTS THE “UNBELIEVERS” WERE THE APOSTLES. JESUS SAID TO THEM ” THOSE WHO BELIEVE” REFERING TO HIS APOSTLES not all believers. THEY CERTAINLY HAD THE SIGN GIFTS.
If you actually read my previous bible quote you will see that the Holy Spirit give to believers what, when and where He wants.
And everything will cease – even this earth we live on. There will be no need for any spiritual gifts in heaven or the new earth
WHY WAS PAUL MINISTRY OF HEALING SO POWERFUL, THEN TOWARDS THE END OF HIS MINISTRY HE COULD NOT HEAL HIMSELF, TIMOTHY, TROPHIMUS AND SO FORTH. INTERESTING WHERE THE GIFTS FADING AWAY ?
TOTALLY AGREE YES THE HOLY SPIRIT DID GIVE THE SIGN GIFTS TO WHOM HE PLEASED. BUT AS WE READ THURTHER WHEN PAUL WAS WRITING CORINTHIANS HE ONLY HAD PART KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY. THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKING IN PAUL, HE WROTE THE OTHER BOOKS OF THE BIBLE AFTER CORITHIANS HE WAS GIVEN NEW PROPHECY AND FORESIGHT. WE SEE FROM 2 CORINTHIANS AND HEBREWS THE SIGN GIFTS WERE ALREADY WRITTEN IN PAST TENSE.
AS WE READ IN CORITHIANS PAUL SAID WE ARE LIKE BABIES, WE SEE IN THE GLASS DIMLY, BUT AS HE WROTE THE OTHER BOOKS MORE REVELATION WAS REVEALED. THIS GOT TO THE STAGE WHERE IN REVELATION SAYS THAT WE ARE NOW FULLY EQUIPED, WE ARE NOW MATURE, WE CAN SEE CLEARLY AS THE SCRIPTURE NOW FULLY FULFILLED “IT THE PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY”. WE ARE NOW NOT THROWN AROUND AS WHEN WE WERE BABYS AS WE HAVE ALL KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY.
THAT’S WHY THE BIBLE IS FOR CORRECTION, REPROOF AND NOTHING CAN BE ADDED OR TAKEN AWAY. SO WHEN REVELATION WAS WRITTEN WE HAVE ANOTHER THING THAT HAS CEASED, THE CONTINUAL WRITING OF THE WORD. WE ALSO KNOW THE OLD TESTAMENT SACRIFIES CAME TO AN END WHEN THE TEMPLE WAS DISTROYED.
THINGS DO NOT COME TO AN END ONLY WHEN JESUS RETURNS. THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT ARE CEASING EVERYDAY.
JUST REFERING TO MARK 16. IF WE ACCEPT IT AS TRUTH THEN WE SHOULD GET CONTEXT
” The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.” 2 Corinthians 12:12
” how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.” Hebrews 2:3-4.
WERE NOT THESE SIGN GIFTS FOR CONFIRMATION, AUTHENTICATION AND AFFIRMATION ?
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know ” Acts 2:22
THIS WAS PROOF THAT THE ONE PERFORMING THE MIRACLES SPOKE FROM GOD.
THERE ARE NUMEROUS SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THESE SIGN GIFTS WERE TEMPORARY ?
” how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it WAS CONFIRMED to us by those who heard, Hebrews 2:3
AS MENTIONED BEFORE THE MAIN VERB IS PAST TENSE “WAS CONFIRMED”, SIGNS WONDERS AND MIRACLES WERE ALREADY REFERRED TO IN THE PAST TENSE AT THE TIME OF WRITING HEBREWS.
AS MENTIONED IN MY PREVIOUS REPLY. IN 1 AND 2 CORINTHIANS TONGUES, KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY WOULD CEASE. LEAVING ONLY FAITH. HOPE. AND LOVE. WE KNOW FAITH AND HOPE WILL CEASE AT JESUS RETURN BUT LOVE LASTS FOREVER.
Just like the manna ceased when Israel entered the land of promise after forty years of transition, so spiritual gifts ended ? If not why do you and I not heal people ?
NOT LIKE TODAY SOME GO TO A CRUSADE AND GO TO THE FRONT FOR HEALING ” . some say that they do not have enough faith some say MAYBE THEY WILL BE HEALED OR NOT “.
I WATCHED A WORLD WIDE PROPHET HEALER, PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD GO TO NIGERIA FOR THEIR HEALING. I KNOW MY MOM FRIEND WHO TOOK HIS WIFE THERE 3 TIMES AND SHE WAS NOT HEALED FROM CANCER. LOTS OF RUGBY PLAYERS HAVE BEEN THERE AND NOT HEALED. WHAT WAS AMASING FOR ME IN THE SERVICE; THE PASTOR HANDED OUT NUMEROUS FREE WHEEL CHAIRS FOR THE SICK. EVERYONE GOES THERE FOR HEALING BUT ARE GIVEN WHEEL CHAIRS?
TO CONCLUDE IF MARK 16 AND THE SIGN GIFTS LIKE TONGUES WERE FOR ONE TO EDIFY THEMSELVES AND SPEAK TO GOD PRIVATELY AND HEAL.
AFTER THE BOOKS OF THE CORINTHIANS WHY IS TONGUES NOT MENTIONED AS A GIFT OF THE SPIRIT ?
WHY DO THE REQUIREMNTS OF PASTORS AND DECEANS NOT REQUIRE TONGUES AND HEALINGS? WHY IS THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR PASTORS AND DEACONS ? DO THEY NOT NEED THESE SIGN GIFTS MORE THAN THE CONGREGATION ? 1 TIM 3.
IF YOU ARE READING THIS AFTER YOUR TIME OUT. I HOPE YOU HAD A RELAXING AND A BLESSED TIME.
REGARDS
Mario
Hallo Mario. Trip postponed till Sunday.
A lot of your answers I can not answer. I only have scripture, as I refuse to assume anything about The Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit based on any actions of people, what stuff looks like, what people do, how the world works etc. Have a look at youtube and you will find thousands of healings, prophesy, tongues, interpretations, exorsisms. Unfortunately Satan copy cat God in everything he can so satanist do just about everything christians can do. This is where the gift of discernment comes in. Do you not think Satan wants to discredit The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirirt in any way he can?
Of course we can not heal at will..we are not God and we do not know if there is a reason why some one is sick…..that is why the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills and when he wills….some are permanent in some people and some is only for certain occasions… – the Holy Spirit decides – clearly stated in scripture.. many of which I quoted in previous discussions.
Lets discuss 1 point at a time with scripture to back up our discussion.
Your quote ” THE SIGNS OF AN APOSTLE WERE THE SIGN GIFTS 2 Corinth 12; 12 “Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”
You said at the beginning of our discussion ” only prophets had these gifts”, and they do not exist today(healing, tongues and prophesy)
I gave you many scriptures where the Holy Spirit gives this as He wants to anyone willing to receive it.
Some are pemanent and some is only for certain occasions.( We will get to this as a point later on)
You have not given me any scripture yet that sais these gifts were ONLY for apostles.
Acts 19:2 to 7. (These were not apostles since Jesus was already gone to heaven.)
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Please quote scripture if you make a point. Scripture is The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirits word and we can not project our own failures or understandings onto how They work and what They do and can do.
You are using an awefull lot of your perceptions of the world and what people do and do not do as “evidence”. I can not explain to you why so many christians fail to live up to what is available to them. That does not mean that every single christian fail at that. Even is 0,1% get it right of your 600 million that is still 600 000 awesome christians out there. Maybe non you know but I definately know and have met a few.
Regards
Pierre
HI PIERRE
I AGREE LETS TAKE A POINT AT A TIME AND DISCUSS IT THOUGHLY AND THEM MOVE UNTO THE NEXT POINT .
Please give me 1 scripture that sais gifts are ONLY for prophets.
WE KNOW THAT THE SIGN GIFTS IN ACTS WERE FOR CERTAIN BELIEVERS AND GIVEN AT THE DESCRECTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
PLEASE NOTE WE ARE SPEAKING HERE ABOUT MARK 16. WE ARE ACCEPTING THESE VERSES AS THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.
SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT THE GIFTS WERE FOR THEM THAT “BELIEVE” HOW MANY TIMES DID THE APOSTLES NOT BELIEVE IN THIS CHAPTER 16? VERSE 14 SPEAKING TO THE APOSTLES AND REPRIMANDING THEM FOR THEIR UNBELIEVE ? VERSE 19 AFTERWARDS THE APOSTLES WENT OUT AND PREACHED, AND THE LORD WAS WORKING “WITH THEM (APOSTLES)”CONFIRMING HIS WORD.
LOOKING AT CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURES BELOW, IF THE SIGNS WERE FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT BELIEVES, HOW WOULD ONE DEFFERENTIATE A NORMAL BELIEVER TO THAT OF APOSTLES AND JESUS AS PER THE UNDERLYING SCRIPTURES. ?
” The signs of a “TRUE APOSTLE” were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.” 2 Corinthians 12:12
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: JESUS the Nazarene, a man ATTESTED TO YOU BY GOD with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know ” Acts 2:22
Acts 2:43 “ Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs PERFORMED BY THE APOSTLES”.
Acts 2:43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs PERFORMED BY THE APOSTLES”.
THERE ARE SO MANY MORE SCRIPTURES IN THIS REGARD, WERE NOT THESE SIGN GIFTS FOR CONFIRMATION, AUTHENTICATION AND AFFIRMATION OF JESUS AND THE APOSTLES?
IF YOU SAY THESE ARE FOR EVERY BELIEVER TODAY. CAN YOU THINK OF A SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS REALLY EXPERIENCED “ALL” THESE MIRACLES.
SIGNS AND WONDERS WERE TO FOLLOWED THEM THAT BELIEVE, NOT THE BELIEVER FOLLOWING AFTER THE SIGNS ?
SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIRACLES ARE NOT FOR THE CHRISTIANS THAT ALREADY BELIEVE, THEY ACCOMPANIED THE GOSPAL AND WERE DONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE UNBELIEVERS TO HAVE THEM BELIEVE IN THE MESSAGE.
REGARDS
mARIO
Hallo Mario.
Do you actually read the scripture I quote? Here is another:
Acts 2:17… 17‘- In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.…
Please explain to me how you interpret these scriptures.
Regards
Pierre
HI PIERRE
Do you actually read the scripture I quote? Here is another:
Acts 2:17… 17‘- In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.…
Please explain to me how you interpret these scriptures.
CAN WE START WITH VERSE 16 “16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
SO WE SEE THAT THIS HAPPENED AS WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL
JOEL 2:28-32
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.”
THIS IS THE PROPHECY THAT PETER SAID WAS FULFILLED. WE SEE PETER
QUOTES A SECTION NOT JUST A COUPLE OF VERSES. THUS HE SAYS THAT THE WHOLE PROPHECY WAS FULFILLED NOT JUST A PART. AS HE SAYS “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:16).
PETER KNEW HE WAS LIVING IN THE LAST DAYS.
THEY WERE IN THE LAST DAYS. 70 AD. THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL, NO MORE TEMPLE FOR SACRIFIES. ECT.
THE PROPHECEY WAS ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH NOT JUST ISRAEL. ALL PEOPLE THAT PUT THEIR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.
THE END TIMES IN VARIOUS SCRIPTURES MEAN DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS. THE “LAST DAYS” DO NOT ALWAYS REFER TO JESUS END TIME RETURN.
Hi mario, I think you have a problem with your caps-lock key. Maybe get it fiixed before continuing this discussion. Best regards
Hi aaquadr
I use capitals to differenciate the difference from someons comments ro my answer to him.
It makes the reply much easier to response and understand. The normal script is the persons comments the my capital letters answers the persons comments. Read my latest comments for clarity.
Thanks for the comment it might help others that read our comments and not get confused.
Hi Mario,
In online culture, capital letters are considered “shouting”. I would not like to be shouted at in this way. The usual convention for quoting someone else’s statement is to use the “bird tracks”, like
This way, you can distinguish your own statements from other’s.
The usual convention for quoting someone else’s statement is to use the “bird tracks”, like
> This is someone else’s
> quoted statement, which
> does not reflect my opinion.
Is this correct ?
>The usual convention for quoting someone else’s statement is to use the “bird tracks”, like
This way, you can distinguish your own statements from other’s.>
do we use > for all three of the above ? how do we know which of the 3 are implied ?
example
>Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”>
What does mean to you above mean to you ?
or is it done this way ?
> This is someone else’s > Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well”
Hi Mario, sorry my example did not work, as the message gets reformatted by this webpage so the line breaks a gone. Maybe better:
(Separated by line breaks.)
Mario it’s sad that you wrestle the scriptures as you contradict yourself.
Mario said June 5, 2016 at 17:09 “We do believe the old Testament and the WHOLE of Gods Word.”
Then Mario said June 10, 2016 (emphasis his) PLEASE NOTE WE ARE SPEAKING HERE ABOUT MARK 16. WE ARE ACCEPTING THESE VERSES AS THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.
<< Mario, this is a great dishonor to the Word of God! It is clear from this comment that you DO NOT believe the WHOLE of God's Word. It was included in the King James Version published in 1611, over 400 years ago. The passage has been hotly debated for decades and REMAINS in most versions. Just because it was not included in the oldest manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) doesn't mean it wasn't included in the original versions – of which none remain.
If you start questioning the authenticity of Bible passages you are heading down a slippery slope.
But wait didn't you also say that the Canon and the Word of God was 'perfect'?
Hi
2 Timothy 3:16-17New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Mario it’s sad that you wrestle the scriptures as you contradict yourself.
>Mario said June 5, 2016 at 17:09 “We do believe the old Testament and the WHOLE WORD of Gods Word.”
>Lets look at Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. As the oldest manuscripts are known to be the most accurate because there were fewer generations of copies from the original autographs (i.e., they are much closer in time to the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark
.
In addition, the fourth-century church fathers Eusebius and Jerome noted that almost all Greek manuscripts available to them lacked vv. 9–20, although they doubtless knew those other endings existed. In the second century, Justin Martyr and Tatian knew about other endings. Irenaeus, also, in A.D. 150 to 200, must have known about this long ending because he quotes verse 19 from it. So, the early church fathers knew of the added verses, but even by the fourth century, Eusebius said the Greek manuscripts did not include these endings in the originals.
The internal evidence from this passage also casts doubt on Mark as the author. For one thing, the transition between verses 8 and 9 is abrupt and awkward. The Greek word translated “now” that begins v. 9 should link it to what follows, as the use of the word “now” does in the other synoptic Gospels. However, what follows doesn’t continue the story of the women referred to in v. 8, describing instead Jesus’ appearing to Mary Magdalene. There’s no transition there, but rather an abrupt and bizarre change, lacking the continuity typical of Mark’s narrative. The author should be continuing the story of the women based on the word “now,” not jumping to the appearance to Mary Magdalene. Further, for Mark to introduce Mary Magdalene here as though for the very first time (v. 9) is odd because she had already been introduced in Mark’s narrative (Mark 15:40, 47, 16:1), another evidence that this section was not written by Mark.
>Then Mario said June 10, 2016 (emphasis his) PLEASE NOTE WE ARE SPEAKING HERE ABOUT MARK 16. WE ARE ACCEPTING THESE VERSES AS THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.
I am not the one that said that the verses 9-20 were not in the original scripts . Read above article and as we see in most bibles that these verses are in italic or they INSCRIPT [SHORTER ENDING OF MARK} AND [ LONGER ENDING OF MARK] why would they be? Therefore some end in verse 8, others include 9-20.
So yes even if they were not supposed to be there, but I have it in my bible. That is why lets accept as true.
<< Mario, this is a great dishonor to the Word of God! It is clear from this comment that you DO NOT believe the WHOLE of God's Word. It was included in the King James Version published in 1611, over 400 years ago. The passage has been hotly debated for decades and REMAINS in most versions. Just because it was not included in the oldest manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) doesn't mean it wasn't included in the original versions – of which none remain.
PLEASE READ THE ABOVE ARTICLE AND IF ITS 400 YEARS AGO, IT DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS ORIGIONALLY IN THE ORIGIONAL MANUSCRIPTS. BUT AS I SAID WE ACCEPT IT AS BEING THERE AND INTERPRET IT AS IT STANDS.
If you start questioning the authenticity of Bible passages you are heading down a slippery slope.
I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BIBLE. I AM SAYING IF ITS IN THE BIBLE LETS ABIDE BY IT.
But wait didn't you also say that the Canon and the Word of God was 'perfect'?
YES THE WORD OF GOD IS PERFECT
The Bible is a reflection of its Author. All books are. The Bible was written by God Himself as He worked through human authors in a process called “inspiration.” “All scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). See also 2 Peter 1:21 and Jeremiah 1:2.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Seem to be veering off topic here a bit – from glossolalia to general “gifts of the Spirit”.
If one interprets “tongues” as a gift – the gift may simply be the ability to break free of traditional customs (i.e. in this case ecclesiastical diglossia) and spread the word in local vernaculars without fear of reprisals.
I don’t believe ‘tongues’ was ever described as a ‘gift’ though, so much as a ‘manifestation’ of the Spirit.
Nowadays, translating religious texts into multiple languages doesn’t merit a second thought, but at one time, it was simply unheard of and a huge thing when it happened – normally, you had to learn the language the text was written in (i.e. Hebrew in this case). Sort of like Muslim Indonesians reciting verses from the Qu’ran in classical Arabic; obviously a language which is a far cry from those of Indonesia. There are places in the modern world where ecclesiastical diglossia is still very much alive.
Hi Hi Pierre
I always thank God for healings. I am glad that you got healed. Did you get healed at the same church ? Was the speaking in tongues at the same time you were healed or some time apart ? Why did you want to speak in tongues ? What was your reason for wanting to speak in tongues ?
Let’s put our discussion in prospect. We were discussing the SIGN GIFTS that were given as a sign to the unbelieving Jews.
God healed and did miracles in the O.T. God caused wombs to be opened and the 10 plagues. I believe that God heals and does miracles today.
But just like there are no apostles today. Why because to be an apostle they had to be an eye witness. 1 John1:9 That which was from the beginning, …which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
The bible said tongues would cease. Then the question should be when did they cease ? We already discussed that tounges, prophecy and knowledge would stop. Then Faith, Hope and Love would remain. So we know Faith is the things we hope for and the evidence of things not seen. So what does this mean ? We still have faith and believe that God sent his Son Jesus and that he is our Lord and Saviour. Our Faith and Hope will also CEASE when Jesus returns. Now what will be left at his return ? Only LOVE as God is LOVE and it remains forever.
I have also seen many, miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation.
If you visit or read about false religions, their guru and believers also see miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation. So does it mean that these are from our God Jesus Christ ? and all these million of non believers have NO CLUE ?
We must both be very careful on what we have or not experienced or the way we interpret scripture. We must remember we live by faith NOT by experiences, feelings or emotions they all can be very misleading.
Yes I am saying that hundreds of thousands of christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong. There are I believe 45 million Christians that speak in tongues. If there are millions of hindus and satan worshiper and experience what christians are experiencing, should we accept their religion as the Way to god ? I do not think so.
How many in Noah days were saved ? In Jesus days what was the church leaders doing ? Thousands of believers but they crusified Christ. Yes not the Romans but the christians.
NOW JUST ANSWERING YOUR NEXT PARAGRAPH
You actually telling God that according to your interpretation these things ceased many years ago when He clearly states in scripture that this is for all His children.
PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT ALL THESE THINGS ARE FOR ALL HIS CHILDREN.
IN MY BIBLE IT SAYS THAT IT IS NOT FOR ALL. 1 Corinthians 12: 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
NO WERE NOT FOR EVERYONE EVEN IN THOSE DAYS.
You are suppose to win people for God….how exactly are you doing that?
WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF SALVATION ? ARE YOU NOT SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ? ARE WE NOT IN CHRIST ? WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN THEN WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AUTOMATICALLY. THERE NO SECOND FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
DO WE NEED MIRACLES SIGNS AND WONDERS FOR TO WIN SOULS. HOW MANY SIGNS AND WONDERS AND HEALINGS DID ISRAEL HAVE ? THEY EXPERIENCED THE VERY BEST BUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY GOT OUT OF EGYPT ? BACK TO WORSHIPING FALSE GODS ?
SALVATION IS THE PREACHING OF GODS WORD.
All I see is you insulting countless numbers of your brothers and sisters including the Triune God.
THE BIBLE SAYS BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT WANT TO HEAR IT SO YOU MAKE ME YOUR ENERMY.
You border on the blasphemy that Jesus is talking about in Mark 3:28-30.
BLASPHEMY OF THE Holy Spirit is UNBELIEVE that God sent his Son to take away our sins of the world.
If we do not believe on Christ finished work on the cross and His resurrection.
I will leave it there and pray for you so you get to see and experience everything you think does not exist one day.
THANK YOU PIERRE FOR YOUR TOUGHTS. I HOPE THROUGH THIS EXCERISE IT WILL MAKE US GO BACK AND READ THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT RELY ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS ON WHAT THE WORD SAYS.
ITS LIKE ADAM AND EVE EAT AN APPLE. DID THEY ? EVERYONE IS TAUGHT THAT EVEN FRON SUNDAY SCHOOL BUT IT IS WRONG.
HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK ? TWO OF EVERY KIND. WAS IT SO ? READ THAT PASSAGE AGAIN AND OU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK.
A LIE TOLD OVER AND OVER BECOMES THE TRUTH ?
Great speaking to you
Regards
MARIO
So if there is irrefutable proof of tongues, healing, miracles, conversion, God, Jesus, angels, demons, satan and everything else concerning God, then God could just have used angels to come preach to us and everyone would believe in Him. Do you believe what the Jews wrote in the old Testament? Start there. If you do not believe in God. How can anyone ever convince you that there is a language that His children speak that is the Holy Spirit speaking through them that only God understands? Or that His children can sometimes speak other earth languages that they could not speak before? And if I can prove to you that I am speaking another earth language I didn’t know, will you believe me or say I knew the language? Everyone keeps shouting for proof. If God wanted to proof anything He will send an angel to come explain it to you. Back to …do you believe what the jews wrote in the old testament….
We do believe the old Testament and the WHOLE of Gods Word.
We believe in Angels and that they did speak to humans and guess WHAT the people understood them and spoke back to the Angels in their own language, and guess WHAT. The angels understood them.
Why would the Holy Spirit want to speak through you to hget to God ? The holy Spirit speaks mysteries that can NOT BE UTTERED WHY IS TONGUE SPEAKERS UTTERING that which CAN NOT BE UTTERED.
The Jews, as a nation, began with signs (Rom. 4:11; Exo. 4:8, 9, 17, 28, 30; 7:3; 8:23; 10:1-2; 13:9; 31:13, 17; Deu. 4:34; 6:22).
The Old Testament Jews lived by signs (Deu. 11:18; Jos. 4:6; 1 Sam. 10:7; 2 Kgs. 19:29; Isa. 7:14; 38:7, 22; Ezk. 4:3; 20:12, 20).
The Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ (Mat. 12:38; 16:1-4; 24:3; Jhn. 2:18; 6:30).
The Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:22; Jhn. 4:48).
According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the gifts of tongues and healing are signs (Mar. 16:16-20).
These signs were for the purpose of confirming the word of God (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3-4).
These signs are spoken of in the past tense in 2 Corinthians 12:12 and in Hebrews 2:3-4, not in the present or future tense.
Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).
WE DO NOT NEED ANGLES TO COME SO WE CAN BELIEVE. WE BELIEVE GOD AND EVERYTHING IN GODS WORD.
Mark16:..Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…
Acts 2:4: ..They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. 5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.…
Acts 10:4-48: ..While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
2 Corinthians 12:12 doesn’t even mention tongues and sais nothing of future miracles and wonders.
1 Corinthians 12:9-12…Hebrews 2:3-4 … no idea how you come to the conclussion this means there is no tongues today…
1 Corinthians 12:10 …to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in various tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines.…
1 Corinthians 12: 27-29…Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?…
1 Corinthians 13:1-3…If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.…
1 Corinthians 14:1-3…Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort.…
1 Corinthians 14:25-27…and the secrets his of heart be will be revealed. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!” 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.…
So after all the above you gonna go with your 2 scriptures that do not even mention tongues.
Your quote “Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).
My quote “Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.” Telling the Holy Spirit what He is doing is not Him but some devil….Good luck when we get to judgment day……
Hi thanks for the reply. Please read carefully. JOHN 20:21-23 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
1 Corinthians 13: 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
LET’S START FROM VERSE
9 NOT 16 IT BRINGS MORE UNDERSTANDING
9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. 12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it to the rest, but THEY DID NOT BELIEVE them either. 14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and HE REBUKED THEIR UNBELIEVE and hardness of heart, because THEY DID NOT BELIEVE those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
WHO WAS JESUS SPEAKING TO IN VERSE 14 ? HIS APOSTLES.
WHO WERE THE UNBELIEVERS ?HIS APOSTLES
NOW IF HIS APOSTLES BELIEVE AS THEY DID NOT BELIEVE THEN THEY WOULD FROM VERSE 16
Mark16:..Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS TALKING TO EVERYONE AND NOT JUST THE APOSTLES BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBEVELIE THAT HE WAS RIASED FROM THE DEAD.
YOU STILL THINK TONGUES HAVE NOT CEASED AS PER SCRIPTURE. WHY ARE ALL THE SPEAKING PEOPLE NOT driving out demons; speaking in new tongues (MANY TONGUES). NOT A SINGLE HEAVENLY LANGUAGE); 18 pick up snakes, deadly poison,lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…
WHY ARE SO MANY CHRISTIANS AND NON CHRISTIANS SICK AND NOT HEALED. WHY ARE OUR HOSPITALS FULL.
Acts 2:4: ..They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them…..
2 Corinthians 12:12 doesn’t even mention tongues and says nothing of future miracles and wonders.
THE SIGNS OF AN APOSTLE WERE THE SIGN GIFTS 2 Corinth 12; 12 “Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”
HERE AGAIN PASSED TENSE ?
Acts 10:4-48:
1 Corinthians 12:9-12…Hebrews 2:3-4 … no idea how you come to the conclussion this means there is no tongues today…
WAS PAUL NOT TALKING TO THE CORINTHIAN CHURCH WHY HE WAS REPREMANDING THEM. THEY WERE IN CAOS. THEY HAD THE GIFTS BUT THE QUESTION “ARE THE GIFTS FOR TODAY?”
1 CORINTHIANS 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are PROPHECIES they will FAIL; whether there are TONGUES, they will CEASE; whether there is KNOWLEDGE , it will VANISH AWAY. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
WHY WOULD THESE SPECIFIC 3 CEASE TO EXIST ? WHY NOT ALL THE GIFTS EXCEPT LOVE ?
1 Corinthians 12:10 …to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of 1
Corinthians 12: 27-29…Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?…
NOT ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES ?
1 Corinthians 13:1-3…If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.…
PAUL HYPOBOLIC SPEACH IF “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels” AND ALSO “if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains” CAN ANYONE ONE MOVE MOUNTAINS WITH THEIR FAITH ? NO.
CAN ANYONE SPEAK ANGEL LANGUAGE IF THERE IS ONE ? NO
ANGELS ALWAYS SPOKE IN EVERYONES MOTHER LANGUAGE AND THEY ALL SPOKE BACK TO THEM IN THERE OWN LANGUAGE.
WHY SPEAK IN A “HEAVENLY LANGUAGE” SO SATAN CAN NOT UNDERSTAND? IF IT MUST BE INTERPRETED IN THE CHURCH ? NO MORE SECRETS THEN ?
WHY DID JESUS TEACH US THE LORDS PRAY ? SATAN CAN HEAR US ?
1 Corinthians 14:1-3…
Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort.…
1 Corinthians 14:25-27…and the secrets his of heart be will be revealed. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!” 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.…
So after all the above you gonna go with your 2 scriptures that do not even mention tongues.
ALL THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE CORRECT TONGUES WAS A TRUE SIGN GIFT. NOW WHO WERE THE SIGN GIFTS FOR ? THE UNBELIEVERS AND THEN AS I MENTIONED SCRIPTURE ABOVE TONGUES ECT SHALL CEASE. NO ONE IS DISPUTING TONGUES EXISTED BUT THEY CEASED. WHEN THEY CEASED WHAT GIFTS WERE LEFT ?
FAITH – HOPE – LOVE
1CORINTHIANS 13:13 And now abide FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
LOOK AT 2 corith 12:12 ” Truly the signs of an apostle WERE accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
ALREADY IN THE PAST TENSE.
HEB 2;3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
THE TWO SCRIPTURES ALREADY SPEAKING IN THE PAST TENSE (WERE). NOT IN THE PRESENT OR FUTURE TENSE ?
Your quote “Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).
I AM JUST QUOTING SCRIPTURE. AN ADUALTEROUS AND WICKET GENERATION SEEKS SIGNS.
My quote “Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.” Telling the Holy Spirit what He is doing is not Him but some devil….Good luck when we get to judgment day……
CAN WE NOT CHANGE YOUR THINKING TO
” TELLING THE HOLY SPIRIT WHAT SOME DEVIL IS DOING IS FROM HIM.
IF ALL DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES AND PEOPLE ARE BEING TAUGHT HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES. ARE THESE PEOPLE NOT TELLING THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT HE IS NOT DOING HIS WORK PROPERLY ?
Good luck when we get to judgment day……
I WOULD NOT SAY THIS TO YOU. BUT I PRAY FOR YOU TO READ AND UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES. COLOSSIANS 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
HOW DO WE KNOW THE SIGN GIFTS WERE CEASING ? JUST LOOK AT THE END OF PAULS MINISTARY. STUDY ALL HIS HEALINGS.
BUT AT THE END OF HIS MINISTERY HE COULD NOT HEAL HIMSELF (2 Corinth 12;5-10). HE COULD NOT HEAL TROPHIMUS (2 Tim 4;20). HE COULD NOT HEAL TIMOTHY (1 Tim 5:23).
WHY IS TONGUES NOT MENTIONED AS A SPIRITUAL GIFT AFTER THE BOOK OF 2 CORINTHIANS ?
Ephesians 4:8-12 AND Romans 12; 6-8.
SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE THAT GOD HAS instucted one to Pray, Preach, Sing or praise God IN TONGUES ??
Hallo Mario. We can keep quoting scripture to each other all year long. We obvious do not interpret it the same way. I have been healed from arthritus which is hereditary in our family. I was prayed for in my church and received tongues. I have been a christian for 30 years and have seen many, many miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation. So you gonna tell me, I and all these christians have no clue. Good luck bud.
Be very carefull when you have not experienced these things to take on what the Holy Spirit does and do not do by the way you interpret scripture. You are saying that hundreds of thousands of christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong. You actually telling God that according to your interpretation these things ceased many years ago when He clearly states in scripture that this is for all His children.
You are suppose to win people for God….how exactly are you doing that?
All I see is you insulting countless numbers of your brothers and sisters including the Triune God.
You border on the blasphemy that Jesus is talking about in Mark 3:28-30.
I will leave it there and pray for you so you get to see and experience everything you think does not exist one day.
Regards
Pierre
Hi Hi Pierre
I always thank God for healings. I am glad that you got healed. Did you get healed at the same church ? Was the speaking in tongues at the same time you were healed or some time apart ? Why did you want to speak in tongues ? What was your reason for wanting to speak in tongues ?
Let’s put our discussion in prospect. We were discussing the SIGN GIFTS that were given as a sign to the unbelieving Jews.
God healed and did miracles in the O.T. God caused wombs to be opened and the 10 plagues. I believe that God heals and does miracles today.
But just like there are no apostles today. Why because to be an apostle they had to be an eye witness. 1 John1:9 That which was from the beginning, …which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
The bible said tongues would cease. Then the question should be when did they cease ? We already discussed that tounges, prophecy and knowledge would stop. Then Faith, Hope and Love would remain. So we know Faith is the things we hope for and the evidence of things not seen. So what does this mean ? We still have faith and believe that God sent his Son Jesus and that he is our Lord and Saviour. Our Faith and Hope will also CEASE when Jesus returns. Now what will be left at his return ? Only LOVE as God is LOVE and it remains forever.
I have also seen many, miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation.
If you visit or read about false religions, their guru and believers also see miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation. So does it mean that these are from our God Jesus Christ ? and all these million of non believers have NO CLUE ?
We must both be very careful on what we have or not experienced or the way we interpret scripture. We must remember we live by faith NOT by experiences, feelings or emotions they all can be very misleading.
Yes I am saying that hundreds of thousands of christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong. There are I believe 45 million Christians that speak in tongues. If there are millions of hindus and satan worshiper and experience what christians are experiencing, should we accept their religion as the Way to god ? I do not think so.
How many in Noah days were saved ? In Jesus days what was the church leaders doing ? Thousands of believers but they crusified Christ. Yes not the Romans but the christians.
NOW JUST ANSWERING YOUR NEXT PARAGRAPH
You actually telling God that according to your interpretation these things ceased many years ago when He clearly states in scripture that this is for all His children.
PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT ALL THESE THINGS ARE FOR ALL HIS CHILDREN.
IN MY BIBLE IT SAYS THAT IT IS NOT FOR ALL. 1 Corinthians 12: 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
NO WERE NOT FOR EVERYONE EVEN IN THOSE DAYS.
You are suppose to win people for God….how exactly are you doing that?
WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF SALVATION ? ARE YOU NOT SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ? ARE WE NOT IN CHRIST ? WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN THEN WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AUTOMATICALLY. THERE NO SECOND FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
DO WE NEED MIRACLES SIGNS AND WONDERS FOR TO WIN SOULS. HOW MANY SIGNS AND WONDERS AND HEALINGS DID ISRAEL HAVE ? THEY EXPERIENCED THE VERY BEST BUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY GOT OUT OF EGYPT ? BACK TO WORSHIPING FALSE GODS ?
SALVATION IS THE PREACHING OF GODS WORD.
All I see is you insulting countless numbers of your brothers and sisters including the Triune God.
THE BIBLE SAYS BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT WANT TO HEAR IT SO YOU MAKE ME YOUR ENERMY.
You border on the blasphemy that Jesus is talking about in Mark 3:28-30.
BLASPHEMY OF THE Holy Spirit is UNBELIEVE that God sent his Son to take away our sins of the world.
If we do not believe on Christ finished work on the cross and His resurrection.
I will leave it there and pray for you so you get to see and experience everything you think does not exist one day.
THANK YOU PIERRE FOR YOUR TOUGHTS. I HOPE THROUGH THIS EXCERISE IT WILL MAKE US GO BACK AND READ THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT RELY ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS ON WHAT THE WORD SAYS.
ITS LIKE ADAM AND EVE EAT AN APPLE. DID THEY ? EVERYONE IS TAUGHT THAT EVEN FRON SUNDAY SCHOOL BUT IT IS WRONG.
HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK ? TWO OF EVERY KIND. WAS IT SO ? READ THAT PASSAGE AGAIN AND OU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK.
A LIE TOLD OVER AND OVER BECOMES THE TRUTH ?
Great speaking to you
Regards
Mario
One of my morning readings. Should we be Doing things that we do not know what we are saying, believing, doing and allowing into us ? That’s why the bible says seek knowledge and understanding ?
1 Samuel 28:14-20
(14) So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. (15) Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ (16) Then Samuel said: ‘So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? (17) And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. (18) Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. (19) Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.” (20) Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.
New King James Version Change your email Bible version
The internal evidence from the narrative reveals a number of significant details to conclude that the spirit the medium saw was not Samuel but a demon impersonating him. One of the most obvious clues is that the text tells the reader outright—twice!—that the Lord would not answer Saul (I Samuel 28:6, 15-16), and there is no way that God would answer him through a lying spirit during an abominable séance! One of the points of the story is to show what desperate people will do when they are cut off from God, in fear for their lives, and without hope.
Yet, this does not mean that the demon does not give Saul a truthful answer. Acting as if it were Samuel, the demon wounds the king with the cruelest words it can use, complaining about being disturbed in his rest, mocking Saul for seeking him, and rubbing it in that God had left him and become his enemy. It reminds him of one of Samuel’s prophecies—given when Saul had disobeyed God’s instruction about the punishment of Amalek and its king, Agag (see I Samuel 15)—foretelling that the kingdom would be torn from him and given to another, David (I Samuel 15:23, 26-28). Finally, it predicts that both he and his sons would die in the next day’s battle against the Philistines, a reasonable assumption considering how overmatched Saul’s forces were.
The demon’s words have the desired effect: “Immediately, Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night” (I Samuel 28:20). Playing on Saul’s fears and weakness, the demon succeeds in bringing the big man low, destroying any remnant of hope. Later, after finally eating and resting (verses 21-25), he leaves the medium’s house a completely broken man.
So, what happened at En Dor?
1. At the end of his rope and highly susceptible to suggestion, Saul was ready to clutch at any straw of hope for a better outcome.
2. The medium was a fraud, bilking people of their money by preying on their superstitions. The spirit’s appearance shocked her.
3. At most God allowed a demon to impersonate Samuel and pronounce Saul’s doom to him, to give him the truth from the only source he had ever trusted to speak straight to him.
In the end, the story of Saul and the medium at En Dor is a morality play of sorts, an object lesson to teach how dangerous it is to forsake God and turn to the counsels of demons through sorcery and divination. It is a path of fear, despair, lies, curses, and death. It records the sad and tragic end of a man who had shown such great potential but who had allowed jealousy and pride to bring him and his house to ruin.
— Richard T. Ritenbaugh
Actually Pierre, you cannot blaspheme the spirit by speaking against tongues. The blasphemy you refer to spoken by Jesus was attributing the works of Jesus to Satan. This is the unforgivable sin and cannot be made today.
Hallo Augustine.
Mark 3 : 28 – 30 say the following…Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
So Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirits work that they said was the work of a devil. So if speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit as clearly stated in all the scripture I quoted previously, then saying speaking in tongues is satanic or demonic is doing exactly what the people Jesus was speaking to did.
Therefore my warning to Mario about stating facts about something you know nothing about…dangerous.
Regards
Pierre
Hi Was the Holy Spirit yet given in Mark 3 ? What was meant by anyone that blaspheme the Holy Spirit ? Is it sinning, saying its that something is not his work, cursing Him, or what are the things that we can do that means we blaspheme the Holy Ghost?
Hallo Augustine.
Mark 3:22 to 30 sais…Mar 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Mar 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Mar 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
Jesus was talking about the work of the Holy Spirit that the scribes said was an unclean spirit or beelzebub, prince of the devils and by whose power He was casting out demons.
Tongues are clearly a gift of the Holy Spirit as can be seen in all the scripture I quoted.
Therefore the warning to Mario and whoever else feels like saying tongues are from the devil or by the power of a evil spirit.
Be very careful about making statements about something concerning not being the Holy Spirit but a devil if you have no
experience or knowledge as stated by the bible.
Regards
Pierre
Hi Pierre hope all is well. You see Salvation and the Word of God are real. According to the bible one lives by Faith NOT by experiences, emotions and feelings. If speaking in tongues is experienced by so many does it make it Right? There are millions that believe in Evolution, worshiping Mary, Satanism, Hindu, Buddha, Homosexual behavior and so on DOES THAT make it CORRECT? OR VALID? You see experiences, emotions and feelings are according to the FLESH, they can not be trusted. Everything that we say is from God must be according to what the Bible says. Are there scriptures that command us to Worship, Pray, Sing and Praise God in tongues ?
Hallo Mario
That would be …Co_14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co_14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co_14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co_14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co_14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Paul found it to be that important, especially in his own life.
Regards
Pierre
Hi Pierre 1 Corinthians 14: 18 was Paul saying he spoke more earthly languages OR more Heavenly Languages than most ?
Why was 1 Corinthians written ?
Is tongues a sign for the believers today, they are taught to speak in tongues OR was tongues for the UNBELIEVER whilst today it is for the BELIEVER?
Why was tongues important for Paul? we know that he spoke quite a few earthly languages. If he said he spoke more heavenly languages an others HOW WOULD he KNOW that ?
The gift was also important as we saw in Acts 2 , 3000 were added to the church.AND ALSO that the people heard in their own language, the different earthly languages are mentioned. AND ALSO it was the prophesy of Joel being fulfilled.
Marchello,
To your points –
“They hear them speaking in their own dialect/vernacular (dialektw). That is the true meaning and ‘sense’ of that verse.”…..
I think this is a case of people are reading way too much into individual words and over-analyzing why one word is used over another. Yes, in modern usage there’s an obvious difference between language (glossa) vs. dialect/vernacular (dialektw), but the word ‘dialect’ is used even today by many people to refer to what are actually languages; “My friend from Zimbabwe speaks an African dialect.” Or even “She speaks in the local dialect of Toshkent.” What’s really meant here, dialect or language? I would argue it’s clearly language. Luke simply chooses to use the word dialektw instead of glossa. The Greek word ‘dialektos’ may be translated either as ‘language’ or ‘dialect’ (with the meaning of ‘language’ as in my examples above). There are other passages in the Bible where the word ‘dialektos’ clearly refers to language, not what we think of as a dialect (i.e. Yorkshire English as opposed to the English of Kent).
“I didn’t read anything that suggests there was outrage at the ‘Galileans’ for teaching in high Hebrew or Greek.”…
I don’t know that I used ‘outrage’; people were astonished and amazed to be hearing their native languages (instead of the expected Hebrew) and clearly some of the people were not happy about it and accused them of being drunk.
“Verses 9 through 11 goes on to list all the dialects they are hearing. (That’s why there is such a comprehensive list provided – the visitors were astounded that the ‘Galileans’ were speaking in their mother tongues).”
No! The list does not name even one language; it’s just a list of geographical locations (about 10) and a few ethnicities (about 5) – nowhere does the list name any language. These locations encompassed the “Jewish world”, if you will (though I think there are one or two places missing from the list) – Palestine/Judea as well as the lands of the Diaspora. The intention may have been that this message was for the entire Jewish Nation – Judea and the Diaspora, not just for a specific group of Jews.
“The verse also says the ‘Galileans’ were speaking about ‘the wonderful works of God’. It doesn’t say anywhere that they were PREACHING OR TEACHING as in a sermon or lesson.”…
Well, that’s just kind of semantics I guess – if you’re speaking about the ‘wonderful works of God’ to people who are unfamiliar with them, you’re essentially preaching/teaching; it doesn’t have to be in a formal sermon/lesson form. In any case, Hebrew would have been the more proper language to use in this instance.
“Are you qualified in Bible exegesis to make a scholarly claim to this translation? There is no Bible translation that even hints at your theory.”…
Not sure what you mean here – ? I’m not translating anything; just looking at what’s there in a different light.
“This link is a more scholarly and scientific refutation of Zerhuson’s (and your) theory. http://www.4-14.org.uk/tongues-in-acts-2-part-3“….
The author suggests there are five points that need to be proven – points one and two seem to be okay and do not have an argument against them.
Point 3 – The only two languages of the diaspora as Greek and Aramaic – unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be anything absolutely 100% conclusive either way. Evidence seems to suggest that Jews in the diaspora tended to live in the larger cities (i.e. they were more ‘urban’) and more likely to keep their language than adopt the one of the country they were living in – that’s not to say a Jew from Parthia would not know Middle Persian/Parthian, but most likely it would not be his/her native language.
For Jews living in the western diaspora however, there really was only one language: Greek, as these places had been Hellenized for generations and Greek, due to it being so widespread as a lingua franca, was seen as perfectly acceptable as opposed to keeping Aramaic as one’s mother tongue and learning Greek as a second (or third) language. In fact, because of the dominance of Greek among the western Diaspora, there was a need for a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Septuagint, which became the standard text used in the synagogues of the western Diaspora, is evidence that Greek was the native language of these Judeans. One may even postulate that in the western Diaspora, Greek was slowly being seen more and more as an acceptable ‘H language’ alongside Hebrew.
It’s the eastern diaspora that gets a bit tricky.
This point (Aramaic or local languages), I agree, could be argued well either way simply due to the lack of evidence. It is however, reasonable to suggest that a Jewish ethnic and religious group in the eastern diaspora would tend to keep their language and culture as well as learn the language and culture of the country they are living in. Zerhusen states “Although Greek was used in Palestine and had penetrated parts of the eastern Diaspora, the Aramaic language continued to dominate in the east. Jacob Neusner says of the use of Aramaic and Greek among the eastern Diaspora: “Most Jews…did not speak Greek but Aramaic (this is inferred from Josephus’ writings, and from later literature), and in later periods produced literature in Hebrew and Aramaic”. F.F. Bruce, discussing the language situation of the eastern Diaspora listed in Acts 2:9-11, wrote: “Parthia, Media, Elam (Elymias) and Mesopotamia lay east of the Euphrates, the Jews in those areas spoke Aramaic. These were the lands of the earliest dispersion, to which exiles from the ten northern tribes of Israel had been deported by the Assyrians in the eighth and seventh centuries B.C. We may recall here (see 2 Kgs 18:19-28) that prior to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests and exile of the Judeans, ordinary Judeans spoke Hebrew as their native tongue and were unfamiliar with Aramaic. This linguistic situation was completely reversed by the time the Judeans returned from their exile. When they returned to Palestine, Hebrew was no longer their native tongue, having been replaced by Aramaic. The most reasonable explanation for this linguistic shift is that the native language for the eastern Diaspora had become Aramaic.”
I live in a city that had a huge textile producing mill in the late 1800’s early 1900’s. They actively recruited workers from literally all over Europe (east and west) and thus, we have a huge ethnic diversity here – many of these ethnic groups still preserve their language and culture. Even today I see this happening – my city has seen in the last ten years or so a huge influx of Bosnians, Somalians and Hispanics. They all closely preserve their language and culture (and learn our culture and English as a second one to theirs). Though this may not be the same situation as Jews living in the diaspora two thousand years ago, there’s no reason to assume people wouldn’t do the same thing with regards to preserving their identity and not wanting to blend into the masses. Getting back to the example of Jews of Parthia – I would argue that Aramaic would have been the language of home and within the Jewish community, Parthian would have been a second or third language to be used with the “locals” when needed, not a mother tongue.
Point 4 – the author argues that Greek as well as Hebrew could be regarded as the “H language” – the more proper language to use – Greek seems to be gaining quite a bit of ground during this time period as being an acceptable alternative to Hebrew as the ‘H language’ particularly amongst the western Diaspora. While the evidence is inconclusive, what little there is seems to point to this. While there certainly may have been those present who would think nothing of hearing the disciples speak in Greek, for some, it was clearly still not culturally acceptable as the narrative comments so much on the astonishment and amazement (and apparently for some, anger) of the crowd in hearing this being done.
Point 5 – The significance of it all. I don’t see this as really being an argument, but….There’s really no where in the entire narrative that suggests there was any type of a communication problem to begin with. Peter spoke to the crowd in one language (Acts 2:14) and apparently was understood by everyone (of course, we have no clue what language that was, but I suspect Greek). So if no language miracle took place, what was the point? To paraphrase from Zerhusen – Luke’s purpose in presenting the list (with Cyprus and Syria missing) was perhaps not intended to represent linguistic diversity, but rather may suggest that the first apostolic ministry was to the Jewish Nation as a whole (Diaspora included).
The real miracle of the Holy Spirit here may simply have been to give the disciples the courage and spiritual strength to “spread the word” and to dispose of the cultural necessity to do so in one (or two) language(s) (i.e. observe strict adherence to ecclesiastical diglossia). They could now break that cultural barrier and use the local vernaculars without fear of any reprise.
The five points the author makes are legitimate, but three of them (1, 2, and 5) can virtually be dismissed. Of the two remaining, point 4 seems to be the weaker of the two – Greek seems to have been gaining quite a bit of ground, but I would argue that for some, to push it to the limits of a holy language in Judaism alongside Hebrew was just not acceptable and going too far judging from the reaction of the crowd.
My goodness you all are so very knowledgeable. I could listen to your arguments for hours and I so respect your honorable way of handling disagreement among each other. Well done! That being said, this simple old woman won’t even begin to embarrass herself by trying to add anything of value to this conversation. But just as an FYI I will tell this story. I had a friend whose brother had joined his wife’s church a few years after they were married. He was given a cassette tape (yes I’m that old) to practice speaking in tongues. He brought it home at her request. The more he listened to it the more he disagreed with the practice and told his wife he would not be “performing” for them. The church leaders put so much pressure on him AND her to go along with this that he refused to go anymore. They shamed and bullied her so much to leave him for this offense they eventually were divorced. I am only speaking of this practice at this one church only. I believe that speaking in tongues as in the Bible is a gift from God given to only some of us. I’m not sure it is valid today but it is certainly possible. Shoot ahead ten years and my brother and his wife joined that same church because her deceased father was a member there for a good part of his life. My brother started to study to become a pastor and got our Roman Catholic mother to become a member there. My mother and brother never spoke in tongues in front of me but after my father passed away they socked her for every penny they could. She was a beautiful, innocently sweet, God loving soul. Churches like that one adore her type. Sigh. God bless you all and thank you for the education. I will be printing this out for future reference. Excellent conversation.
That’s really an unfortunate experience – I think, however, it seems to evidence the almost *necessity* of some spiritual paths to validate their beliefs, particularly when it comes to ‘speaking in tongues’ – I really have to wonder at times how much of it is just a performance. From what I’ve been able to research, it seems ‘performing’ (a/k/a/ ‘faking it’) is much more a common occurrence than I would have ever thought!
At one meeting a white lady up the front started babbling in tongues…………except this time a foreign family visiting understood and heard it as their own mother tongue! I wasn’t there so I cannot verify this as authentic. I would agree that the vast majority of the time it certainly does sound like people are blabbing away………………..
Unfortunately, this is the typical scenario – supposedly an instance of xenoglossia, but not at all documented. Someone speaks in tongues and supposedly a person, or persons recognize it as their native language. It would be great to have some documented proof of such an instance as the Pentecostal/Charismatic tradition seems to be rife with similar examples, but nothing to date has been able to be proven as a genuine case of xenoglossia.
Marchello,
No, not at all – but what I am doing is shedding some light on a more logical interpretation of what was written in the Pentecost narrative, taking into account some basic factors of Jewish culture from that time period; specifically, and most importantly, the concept of ecclesiastical diglossia. This interpretation negates a language miracle of xenoglossia (none was needed) as well as glossolalia (ecstatic utterances were also not needed), people understood the disciples in their mother tongues).
In all of the examples you give, the astonishment of the crowd is clear – “why are we hearing these guys speak in our mother tongues (i.e. native languages)??” That is – “Why are we hearing them speak in Aramaic and Greek when the correct language for such an occasion is Hebrew??”
You have to keep in mind two things; the concept of ecclesiastical diglossia and the fact that nowhere in the passage does it state what those tongues/languages were! It is assumed it would be obvious to the reader. How?
The narrative tells us exactly where the Jews from the diaspora visiting Jerusalem for Shavuot were from – from this list we can see that there are people there from the eastern diaspora (e.g. Parthia, Elam, Mesopotamia, and Arabia) and the western diaspora (e.g. Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Libya belonging to Cyrene, Crete, and Rome).
The lands of the western diaspora had been Hellenized for centuries (Greek was common even in Rome) – the language of the western diaspora was Greek. The language of the eastern diaspora (those not Hellenized) was Aramaic.
Even if one were to try and put estimates on the percentages of those from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas in Judea as well as those from the Diaspora (and even try and estimate how many were from the western and eastern diasporas), the number is really irrelevant; it’s the languages we’re concerned about. No matter how you slice it, all those people would have been fluent ion one of those two languages (or even both).
Concerning the passage where people are essentially saying “Hey, aren’t these guys all Galileans? How come we’re hearing them in our own native languages?” When you take the concept of ecclesiastical diglossia into account, the narrative makes considerably more sense. “Hey, aren’t these guys all Galileans? Why are they speaking to us in Aramaic and Greek our native tongues? They should know better than that! Don’t they know the proper language in this situation is Hebrew? They must be all drunk to even thing of doing such a thing!” Violating ecclesiastical diglossia was simply something that was not done. The proper language they should be using on Shavuot to proclaim about God is Hebrew, not Aramaic and Greek.
It’s a bit radical to think of it this way for some perhaps, but the modern interpretations I think try to read way too much into what is a simple explanation that makes perfect sense.
Kavik – well… it’s a theory, lol. Yes it’s a bit radical and not particularly logical. Why? If you simply read the verses in the original Greek it doesn’t even hint at this theory.
(read it for yourself) http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act2.pdf
In Act 2 verse 6 the visitors to Jerusalem are astounded because they hear the ‘Galileans’ speaking in their own…
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They hear them speaking in their own dialect/vernacular. That is the true meaning and ‘sense’ of that verse.
I didn’t read anything that suggests there was outrage at the ‘Galileans’ for teaching in high Hebrew or Greek.
Verses 9 through 11 goes on to list all the dialects they are hearing. (That’s why there is such a comprehensive list provided – the visitors were astounded that the ‘Galileans’
were speaking in their mother tongues).
The verse also says the ‘Galileans’ were speaking about ‘the wonderful works of God’. It doesn’t say anywhere that they were PREACHING OR TEACHING as in a sermon or lesson.
Are you qualified in Bible exegesis to make a scholarly claim to this translation? There is no Bible translation that even hints at your theory.
This link is a more scholarly and scientific refutation of Zerhuson’s (and your) theory.
http://www.4-14.org.uk/tongues-in-acts-2-part-3
PART 2
To paraphrase from Robert Zerhusen’s articles: “This creates a huge problem for any sort of language miracle to have occurred – the disciples would have been familiar with both languages. So what then were these “other tongues” the narrative refers to? Very simply, the “other languages” would have been nothing more than Greek and Aramaic. But why would the narrative call them “other languages” when they would have been familiar to the disciples (speakers)? Other than WHAT language? Why would the crowd react with such amazement and even ridicule when they heard the disciples teaching/proclaiming in Aramaic and Greek (languages the disciples already knew)?” It doesn’t seem to make sense.
To gain a better understanding and to try and put it in better perspective one must look at the significance of Hebrew in Jewish culture.
What one must understand is that in many ancient cultures (in this case the Jewish culture) the language of prayer, worship, and in some cases religious teaching, was very specific. Something we really don’t have today so it’s hard to relate to. In many cultures, when you prayed, you prayed in one specific prescribed language…period. For Jews, this was Hebrew. To do so in another language was simply unheard of and unthinkable (though Aramaic was allowed in some cases for some prayers). As odd and even nonsensical as it sounds to us today, for a Jew at that time, to hear someone praising, proclaiming, or praying to THEIR God in say Galatian or Assyrian, or even Aramaic and Greek for that matter, would have been utterly shocking and sort of akin to a cultural taboo; it just wasn’t done; Hebrew was the only proper choice in this context.
This phenomenon, the use of two different languages by a people under certain social conventions is called diglossia. This exists today in some European countries, but not in America. In Germany for example the language of the government, newspapers, television, education, etc. is High German whilst the general populace speaks in various Low German dialects. In Greece one sees “katharevusa” the “high language” of literature, education, etc., but people speak ‘demotic‘ the “low language” on a day to day basis. Both variants are Greek, just different forms.
In a religious context this is seen even today – Hebrew is the language of Judaism, Classical Arabic the language if Islam, Coptic the language of the Coptic Christian Church, Sanskrit the language if Hinduism and Buddhism. In the Roman Catholic Church, until recently, it was Latin.
There is typically a distinction in prestige between the high language (H) and the low language (L). H is seen as superior to L in most instances. H is used to express more important thoughts, it is seen as somehow more beautiful than L. The H language is seen as connecting the community to its past, some would believe that H is more divinely sanctioned. In short, to use L in certain situations (religious settings, for example) was, and in some cultures still is, seen as a major taboo and culturally unacceptable.
First century Judeans would have viewed Hebrew as the H language and Aramaic (and/or Greek, depending on where you were from) as the L language(s).
So strong are these taboos in some cultures that people have been killed as a result of violating them. William Tyndale, for example, was killed for violating ecclesiastical diglossia in England when he translated the Bible (H language – Latin) into English (L language – local vernacular).
“Other tongues/languages” to Judeans when it came to religion meant something very simple – languages other than Hebrew.
These “other languages/tongues” for Jews in both Israel/Palestine and the Diaspora were simply their native languages of Greek and Aramaic; the L languages which they differentiated from Hebrew, the H language.
The Jewish crowd expected to be hearing the priests conducting the liturgy in what they call “leshon ha-kodesh” – “the holy language”, i.e. Hebrew, the H language. This was the expectation even though Hebrew would not be intelligible to most of them; it was the cultural expectation. They would never expect to hear ordinary people boldly prophesying in an L language (Aramaic and/or Greek) in this situation. The importance of using the right kind of language in a particular situation was/is critical. .
When people heard the disciples speaking in the L languages of Aramaic and Greek rather than the expected H language of Hebrew, their reaction was one of amazement and in some cases even anger. This was simply not something that was seen as culturally acceptable. To paraphrase – “Why do we hear them in our native languages (instead of the expected H language of Hebrew)?”
Some even accused the disciples of being drunk. As Zerhusen puts it, “To them, only a drunk person would be so uninhibited as to ignore the sacred/profane distinction inherent in the Jewish diglossia.”
In summary, as far as Pentecost is concerned, there really was no language miracle (i.e. xenoglossia) and certainly no ecstatic utterances. It was simply the disciples prophesying and teaching in the common languages of Aramaic and Greek (the L languages which they all were familiar with) instead of Hebrew (the expected H language in this situation). This simple explanation not only encompasses the cultural expectations of the day, but completely negates the need for trying to explain a language miracle or ecstatic utterances.
The true miracle or ‘gift’ of the Holy Spirit here may have simply been the apostles finding the courage to go out and boldly preach in the everyday languages of those gathered for the feast; these were, we are told, people supposedly literally in fear of their lives behind locked doors after the execution of their leader, Jesus by the foreign occupiers (the Romans) of their homeland. The true gift of the Spirit may have been simply the courage for them to overcome this fear. The language used to speak to the masses simply Aramaic and Greek, being done for the first time to illustrate that the message of the disciples need not be solely limited to the expected H language of Hebrew.
We may therefore conclude that “other tongues (read “languages”) in Acts are nothing more than the two native languages of the attendees: Aramaic and Greek. Both of which the disciples would have spoken.
Divers tongues (read “various languages’) simply refers to languages other than Hebrew (and most likely Aramaic and Greek) – what would have been perceived by Jews as true “foreign” languages (e.g. Latin, Egyptian, Babylonian, Galatian, etc.). People who were polyglot (had the ability to learn and speak multiple languages) may have been perceived as having a divine ‘gift’ which enabled them to easily learn languages. Formal education in the first century was rather scarce and not available to many and certainly would not have included education on learning foreign languages.
Kavik, are you trying to re-write the Bible? This theory is a spectacular fail. Maybe someone will believe it.
KAVIK: In summary, as far as Pentecost is concerned, there really was no language miracle (i.e. xenoglossia) and certainly no ecstatic utterances. It was simply the disciples prophesying and teaching in the common languages of Aramaic and Greek…
What the Bible says:
KJV 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
RSV 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
AMPLIFIED 8 Then how is it that we hear, each of us, in our own (particular) dialect to which we were born?
LIVING BIBLE 8 and yet we hear them speaking all the native languages of the lands where we were born!
THE MESSAGE Then when they heard, one after another, their own mother tongues being spoken, they were thunderstruck. They couldn’t for the life of them figure out what was going on, and kept saying, “Aren’t these all Galileans? How come we’re hearing them talk in our various mother tongues?
THE VOICE 8 How in the world do we all hear our native languages being spoken? 9 Look—there are Parthians here, and Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamians, and Judeans, residents of Cappadocia, Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygians and Pamphylians, Egyptians and Libyans from Cyrene, Romans including both Jews by birth and converts, 11 Cretans, and Arabs. We’re each, in our own languages, hearing these people talk about God’s powerful deeds.
In light of Pentecost, I have revamped one of the sections in my study and show it below…. Due to length, it must be done in two parts.
PART 1
The next section deals with defining “tongues” as referenced in the Bible – what exactly is meant; real language or ecstatic speech? What are “other tongues” and “divers tongues”?
Up to now, I have been discussing the phenomenon of modern glossolalia; what it is and what it is not. What about tongues in the Bible? There are two main passages that proponents refer to for tongues; Acts and Corinthians. Upon close examination through the eyes of sociolinguistics, there is only one conclusion one may draw – Biblical “tongues” refer to real human languages, not to the ecstatic speech of modern Pentecostal/Charismatic glossolalia.
I will start with Pentecost since, for many, this is where it all began…
In reading the Biblical account of what transpired on Pentecost, it is rather obvious that this is not the same phenomenon as the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic “speaking in tongues”. Those gathered heard them speaking real languages understood by those present.
The description of the event is, at first glance, virtually an ancient ‘textbook example’ of what is known as xenoglossia or xenoglossy – the ability to speak in a REAL language the speaker has in no way, shape or form ever been exposed to.
Some will argue that the miracle was one of hearing, not speaking – people heard them in their own languages.
With respect to what transpired however, there is a very viable alternative which, if given serious consideration, completely negates the need of a language miracle (xenoglossia) or ecstatic speech (glossolalia).
In the below, I am paraphrasing here and there from a few articles written by Robert Zerhusen on the events of Pentecost and Corinthians through the eyes of sociolinguistics. What is interesting to me as a Linguist is that in my study, I drew the very same conclusions before I knew of Zerhusen’s articles. I think it lends support that two completely independent studies can draw the same conclusion; that the modern Christian concept of tongues simply doesn’t hold under careful examination.
We are told in Acts that there were Jews from “every nation under heaven” gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost. The narrative goes on to state specifically where those visiting Jerusalem were from, i.e. it lists various locations. Upon closer scrutiny, this list may be broken down into geographic places (10) and ethnic groups (5). Further, ‘every nation under heaven’ (i.e. Diaspora Jews) is not to be taken literally, but rather for the idiomatic expression in the context in which it was written; i.e. referring to the locations mentioned in the list.
It is critical to note that nowhere does the narrative specifically mention what languages these people spoke.
This has led many over the ages to assume that each location and ethnic group referenced in the narrative had its own specific language or languages; it was just naturally assumed that the Diaspora Jews spoke a dozen or so languages which the disciples were not at all familiar with. Depending on the source, numbers range from about a dozen to almost twenty or more.
Examining Acts through the eye of sociolinguistics, we discover a whole new understanding of the narrative which casts new light on the concept of ‘tongues’ with respect to Acts and Pentecost.
The masses of “devout Jews” referred to in Acts may be divided into two groups: those that lived in Palestine/Israel (Group 1) and those of the Diaspora (Group 2). The bulk of the crowd would have most likely consisted of those from Group 1 since they lived the closest to Jerusalem or in the city itself.
This is analogous to having some sort of say “International Conference of Linguists” in Boston. The bulk of attendees would come from the New England area since it’s not far for them to travel, and a good majority of them already live there. Lesser and lesser percentages of attendees would come from further and further away from Boston, with the smallest percentage coming from abroad.
In other words, as far as Pentecost is concerned, the majority of “attendees” by far would have been people living right in Jerusalem and the surrounding area. The native language of all of these people? Aramaic.
Turning to the Diaspora (those Jews living outside of Israel/Palestine), most scholars differentiate between eastern Diaspora and western Diaspora. One of the differentiations between the two is the native languages spoken. The people of the western Diaspora lived in areas around the Mediterranean basin that had been very heavily Hellenized for centuries. The primary language of western Diaspora Jews was simply Greek. Those Jews of the eastern Diaspora spoke Aramaic as their native language.
In a nutshell, the crowds gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost would have spoken two languages; Greek and Aramaic.
Also critical to note is that nowhere in the narrative does it state that the languages spoken were unlearned by the disciples.
I’ve heard both the learned behaviour and also something genuine. It’s linguistically distinct from talking and different brain regions are active, as discovered by Newberg et al in 2006. Unfortunately they didn’t brain-scan people exhibiting the “fake” kind for comparison.
My own experience was involuntary speaking in tongues, rather forcing me to believe in it.
But it does seem to be a bit of a craze.
Mario –
No, I don’t believe you could be cursing God, or anyone else for that matter, as the “words” you are speaking when practicing glossolalia have no meaning in and of them self; it is simply random free-vocalization.
“Tongues” had to be interpreted because they were real languages – if you didn’t speak that particular language, you had no idea what the speaker was saying. As I understand it, early worship was not done as it is now (i.e. a “mass” or “service” type setting); people simply spoke out, prayed, worshiped and, as some put it, “testified”.
Though I would argue that most people probably had some working knowledge of Greek, particularly in Corinth, it’s much easier to pray/worship in your native language.
A thought just occurred to me though – I have to wonder if perhaps another reason why interpretation (read ‘translation’) was required was to ensure that the church was not being defiled in some way by these “foreigners”. I have to think that people back then viewed foreigners the same way some people do today – often times with a degree of suspicion (simply because they don’t understand them or their culture). That was just a quick random thought – no clue if there’s any truth to it.
No, I don’t believe you could be cursing God, or anyone else for that matter.
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, WHO KNOWS WHAT ONE IS SAYING ? WHAT ARE THE OTHER SPIRITUALS SAYING ?
1 Corinthians 13: 2 “You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. ”
So if one speaking by the Spirit of God CAN NOT call Jesus accursed THEN ONE NOT SPEAKING BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD CAN CALL JESUS ACCURSED ?
The point is that you’re not saying anything – glossolalia is not language in any way shape or form. Paul in Corinthians is referring to real language(s).
(I obviously hit the “submit” button way too many times in my earlier response – I seem to have triple posted.)
Mario –
No, I don’t believe you could be cursing God, or anyone else for that matter, as the “words” you are speaking when practicing glossolalia have no meaning in and of them self; it is simply random free-vocalization.
“Tongues” had to be interpreted because they were real languages – if you didn’t speak that particular language, you had no idea what the speaker was saying. As I understand it, early worship was not done as it is now (i.e. a “mass” or “service” type setting); people simply spoke out, prayed, worshiped and, as some put it, “testified”.
Though I would argue that most people probably had some working knowledge of Greek, particularly in Corinth, it’s much easier to pray/worship in your native language.
A thought just occurred to me though – I have to wonder if perhaps another reason why interpretation (read ‘translation’) was required was to ensure that the church was not being defiled in some way by these “foreigners”. I have to think that people back then viewed foreigners the same way some people do today – often times with a degree of suspicion (simply because they don’t understand them or their culture). That was just a quick random thought – no clue if there’s any truth to it.
As to some examples of non-Christian practitioners of glossolalia…..
In an article in the Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation entitled “An Ethnological Study of Glossolalia” by George J. Jennings, March 1968. Jennings observes that glossolalia is practiced among the following non-Christian religions of the world; the Peyote cult among the North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, Shamans in the Sudan, the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa, the Shago cult in Trinidad, the Voodoo cult in Haiti, the Aborigines of South American and Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia, the Shamans in Greenland, the Dyaks of Borneo, the Zor cult of Ethiopia, the Siberian shamans, the Chaco Indians of South America, the Curanderos of the Andes, the Kinka in the African Sudan, the Thonga shamans of Africa, and the Tibetan monks.
The above are just a few examples – one can also add the original “shamans” of Siberia (the Evenki people for example), native Inuit shamans of Greenland, the list goes on and they are all doing essentially the exact same thing as Christian “tongue-speakers”.
I agree with your comment
As mentioned in previous replies. If anyone wants to indulge in the unknown, one should read what the bible actually says about the subject “speaking in tongues” is an example. People who are taught how to speak or speak in tongues naturally, the question such people should ask themselves
IF TONGUES IS ALSO PRACTICED IN OTHER RELIGIONS THAT DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOUR, “COULD I BE CURSING GOD” AS SOME OF THE CORITHIANS WERE DOING. HOW CAN WE KNOW IF ITS FROM GOD OR NOT.
Ask yourself why did “tongues” had to be interpreted in the church ? So we could know if they were worshiping Satan or God ?
No, I don’t believe you could be cursing God, or anyone else for that matter, as the “words” you are speaking when practicing glossolalia have no meaning in and of them self; it is simply random free-vocalization.
“Tongues” had to be interpreted because they were real languages – if you didn’t speak that particular language, you had no idea what the speaker was saying. As I understand it, early worship was not done as it is now (i.e. a “mass” or “service” type setting); people simply spoke out, prayed, worshiped and, as some put it, “testified”.
Though I would argue that most people probably had some working knowledge of Greek, particularly in Corinth, it’s much easier to pray/worship in your native language.
A thought just occurred to me though – I have to wonder if perhaps another reason why interpretation (read ‘translation’) was required was to ensure that the church was not being defiled in some way by these “foreigners”. I have to think that people back then viewed foreigners the same way some people do today – often times with a degree of suspicion (simply because they don’t understand them or their culture). That was just a quick random thought – no clue if there’s any truth to it.
Mario you seem not to understand the clear Bible teaching on this topic. I have posted answers for you, straight from the Bible, and you still continue with the same question!
Here is what the Bible says. If you are a Christian you need to prayerfully consider what it says.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Amplified Version Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit [that is, whoever intentionally discredits the Holy Spirit by attributing the authenticating miracles done by Me to Satan], it will not be forgiven him [for him there is no forgiveness].
Mario this is what you claim: that Christians are cursing Christ and worshipping Satan when they pray in tongues.
Marchello,
Let me start by saying I’m not debating whether or not the “gifts of the Holy Spirit” are still around or not – people may believe whatever they wish; I’m not a Pentecostal nor a Charismatic Christian so that whole debate as to whether these ‘gifts’ stopped with the apostolic age or not is completely irrelevant to me – as far as I’m concerned, it’s just various Pentecostal/Charismatic and other Christian paths trying to justify practicing their particular beliefs or arguing back and forth why their neighbors should stop practicing a particular belief.
Your quote –
The operative word here is “modern”. The ecstatic utterances of modern Pentecostal/Charismatic tongues did come about around the same time. Charles Parham’s ‘tongues as real languages’ was an epic fail and the movement essentially revamped their entire take on “tongues” – they needed another explanation for what they were practicing since it became painfully obvious real languages was not it – the end result was the modern Pentecostal “re-definition”, so to speak, of tongues as “heavenly languages” or “prayer languages”. It just seems somewhat coincidental that this happened right about the time that things like spiritualism, esoteric studies/arts, started becoming popular here and in Europe.
As to the link you provided, there is very little in it that actually relates to glossolalia – what there is, with the exception of one or two references, clearly refers to real language, not the ecstatic utterances of the modern Pentecostals/Charismatic movement. Again though very historical, it can be argued it’s all hearsay and in a few instances, it looks like the people in question were exposed to the target languages they were supposedly speaking (the woman speaking German, for example).
Most of what the article seems to refer to is so-called “faith healing”, which also exists (though not called the same thing) in many other cultures. It’s practiced very differently, but essentially the same thing. Reiki comes to mind with respect to “laying on of hands” (though in Reiki the practitioner’s hands do not need to physically touch the ‘‘patient”).
Because this was originally a study intended solely for my own use, I do not give references – I didn’t need then at the time the study was done as I was the only one who was ever going to use and refer to it – it really was not intended to go any further than my own notes.
I would suggest the books written by William Samarin and Felicitas Goodman dealing with their studies on glossolalia – Samarin takes a Linguistic approach, Goodman a more cultural approach. Goodman’s book is called “Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study of Glossolalia” and one of Samarin’s is “Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism”. You should be able to find excerpts from them online.
Kavik, I at least gave you one reference/link/source as part of my claims. Something you did not do ONCE in your lengthy essay.
That link, as I said, was simply a ‘starter’ for further study. The gift of tongues is part of a wider discussion among Christian as to whether any or all Spiritual Gifts have continued or ended.
Here again is more information on the history ‘speaking in tongues’ – a practice which clearly has not risen at the same time as Spiritualism in the early 1900s – a theory so easily debunked, as is your latest theory (re: the tongues of Pentecost were only Aramaic and Greek).
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Glossolalia
Church history
Twentieth-century Pentecostalism was not the earliest instance of “speaking in tongues” in church history after the events described in Acts and Paul’s letters. Indeed, there were a number of recorded antecedents in several centuries of the Christian era, e.g.,
Saint Augustine spoke of Christians who sang “in jubilation” in an unknown language.•150 C.E. –
Justin Martyr wrote “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time.” [1] and “Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.” [2]
•156-172 – Montanus and his two prophetesses—Maximilla and Priscilla—spoke in tongues and saw this as evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit. (Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. (17),Book 3).
•175 C.E. – Irenaeus of Lyons, in his treatise Against Heresies, speaks positively of those in the church “who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages.” [3]
•circa 230 C.E. – Novatian said, “This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings… and thus make the Lord’s Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed.” [4]
•circa 340 C.E. – Hilary of Poitiers, echoing Paul in 1 Corinthians, wrote, “For God hath set same in the Church, first apostles… secondly prophets… thirdly teachers… next mighty works, among which are the healing of diseases… and gifts of either speaking or interpreting diverse kinds of tongues.” [5]
•circa 390 C.E. – Augustine of Hippo, in an exposition on Psalm 32, discusses a phenomenon contemporary to his time of those who “sing in jubilation,” not in their own language, but in a manner that “may not be confined by the limits of syllables.”[6].
•475 – 1000 C.E. – During the so-called Dark Ages, little history was recorded although speaking in tongues may well have been practiced in certain times and places.
•1100s – The heretical Waldenses and Albigenses, as well as certain of the orthodox Franciscans, all reportedly spoke in tongues. Saint Hildegard of Bingen is also reputed to have spoken and sung in tongues, and her spiritual songs were referred to by contemporaries as “concerts in the Spirit.”
•1300s – The Moravians are referred to by detractors as having spoken in tongues. John Roche, a contemporary critic, claimed that the Moravians “commonly broke into some disconnected jargon, which they often passed upon the vulgar, ‘as the exuberant and resistless Evacuations of the Spirit.'”[7].
•1600s – The Camisards also spoke sometimes in languages that were unknown: “Several persons of both sexes,” James Du Bois of Montpellier recalled, “I have heard in their Extasies pronounce certain words, which seem’d to the Standers-by, to be some Foreign Language.” These utterances were sometimes accompanied by the gift of interpretation.[8]
•1600s – Early Quakers, such as Edward Burrough, make mention of tongues speaking in their meetings: “We spoke with new tongues, as the Lord gave us utterance, and His Spirit led us.”[9].
•1700s – John Wesley and Methodism. Wesleyan revivals across Europe and North America included many reportedly miraculous events, including speaking in tongues. [10]
•1800s – Edward Irving and the Catholic Apostolic Church. Edward Irving, a minister in the Church of Scotland, wrote of a woman who would “speak at great length, and with superhuman strength, in an unknown tongue, to the great astonishment of all who heard.”[11]. Irving further stated that “tongues are a great instrument for personal edification, however mysterious it may seem to us.”
And so poor Kavik you have much history now to rewrite! lol
Can we say for sure that Speaking in tongues mentioned in your comments are all from the gifts of the Holy Spirit ? OR from another source ?
IF you do not know what you are saying could you be cursing God without knowing it, like the Corinthian church.
Why would God give the false religions also the same tongue? There are various churches that speak in an unknown tongue, is this tongue from God or Satan; therefore if you do not understand the tongue you may even be worshiping a false God.
Mario, no doubt there are counterfeit ‘tongues’, false prophets, false Christians and false doctrines within false churches. Is it ALL fake? I don’t believe it is.
People should ‘search the scriptures’ and see what the early Christians taught and compare that to what has been ADDED over the centuries.
(Ever heard of ‘infant baptism’? The early church hadn’t! They only baptized adults who could confess their faith in Jesus Christ.)
So, yes of course there can be fake practices in Christianity.
Mario do you believe that ANY ‘gift of tongues’ could be of God, or is it all fake to you? Come out of the shadows Mario. What religion are you if any?
Jesus said in Luke 11.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Are you saying that when a person asks for the Holy Spirit that Satan actually outmuscles God and gets in first? Will they end up with a scorpion? Is Satan more powerful than God?
Mario, you are giving far too much credit to Satan.
John said: “My loved ones, I warn you: do not trust every spirit. Instead, examine them carefully to determine if they come from God, because the corrupt world is filled with the voices of many false prophets. 1 JOHN 4:1 (The Voice Bible)
I will answer your question on why there are ‘tongues’ in other religions at another time. Suffice to say that other religions also have prophets, doctrines and rituals. Should Christianity reject all these things because they exist in other religions? Hardly.
Christianity can have whatever gifts God has given them. But The word of God is the standard by which we are to judge all doctrines, What God says or gives or does not. (Isa. 8:20; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).
IF GOD SAID THAT THE GIFT OF TONGUES (earthly languages) WOULD CEASE AND THEY DID, WOULD GOD GO AGAINST HIS WORD AND MAKE TONGUES HAPPEN AGAIN ? DO YOU THINK HE WILL ?
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
OUR HEAVENLY FATHER WOULD NOT GIVE HIS SON THE BAD THINGS ABOVE, BUT WE HAVE TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH OF WHO IS ONE’S REAL FATHER.
Are Christian in the Bible is ever commanded to pray, preach, sing, or praise God in tongues (special pray language) .
Many “seducing spirits” are in the world and it is every Christian’s duty to “try” these spirits (1 Tim. 4:1; I Jhn. 4:1; Rev. 2:2).
Should Christianity reject all these things because they exist in other religions? Hardly.
NO NOT REJECT EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS IN OTHER RELIGIONS BUT REJECT EVERYTHING THAT IS CONTRARY TO THE WORD OF GOD.
Teaching the Scriptural Truth about signs, healing, and tongues is not a matter of being mean, prejudiced, or intolerant. It is simply a matter of obeying the command to RIGHTLY DIVIDE God’s word (2 Tim. 2:15)
Mario
Please…before you post again, read SOMETHING about spiritual gifts during the history of Christianity or even during the Reformation. You can deny modern Pentecostalism but you cannot deny ALL of church history… or maybe you can! lol It’s anything goes here.
You are a ‘cessationist’ that is clear. But I really hope your claim that ‘tongues will cease’ is based on MUCH more than ONE verse taken OUT OF CONTEXT.
I Corinthians 13 v 8 “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, THEY SHALL CEASE; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”
When shall tongues cease? Verse 10: “But when that which is PERFECT is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”
There is only one ‘perfect’ one and it is not the church, or the Bible, etc. It is Jesus Christ and his promised return to this troubled world.
The WHOLE passage (verses 8 to 13) repeat the same idea. Here are 3 translations that should help you understand what Paul was trying to explain.
AMPLIFIED
8 Love never fails [it never fades nor ends]. But as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for the gift of special knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part [for our knowledge is fragmentary and incomplete]. 10 But when that which is complete and perfect comes, that which is incomplete and partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now [in this time of imperfection] we see in a mirror dimly [a blurred reflection, a riddle, an enigma], but then [when the time of perfection comes we will see reality] face to face. Now I know in part [just in fragments], but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known [by God]. 13 And now there remain: faith [abiding trust in God and His promises], hope [confident expectation of eternal salvation], love [unselfish love for others growing out of God’s love for me], these three [the choicest graces]; but the greatest of these is love.
THE LIVING BIBLE
8 All the special gifts and powers from God will someday come to an end, but love goes on forever. Someday prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge—these gifts will disappear. 9 Now we know so little, even with our special gifts, and the preaching of those most gifted is still so poor. 10 But when we have been made perfect and complete, then the need for these inadequate special gifts will come to an end, and they will disappear.
11 It’s like this: when I was a child I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I became a man my thoughts grew far beyond those of my childhood, and now I have put away the childish things. 12 In the same way, we can see and understand only a little about God now, as if we were peering at his reflection in a poor mirror; but someday we are going to see him in his completeness, face-to-face. Now all that I know is hazy and blurred, but then I will see everything clearly, just as clearly as God sees into my heart right now.
13 There are three things that remain—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.
THE MESSAGE
8-10 Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.
11 When I was an infant at my mother’s breast, I gurgled and cooed like any infant. When I grew up, I left those infant ways for good.
12 We don’t yet see things clearly. We’re squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won’t be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We’ll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us!
13 But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.
Now in this context keep reading the next verse and remember the chapters don’t exist in the original manuscripts.
14Living Bible (TLB)
1 Corinthians 14 v 1 “Let love be your greatest aim; nevertheless, ask also for the special abilities the Holy Spirit gives, and especially the gift of prophecy, being able to preach the messages of God.”
KJV
“Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.”
Paul teaches that Christians should ‘desire spiritual gifts’. Or do you want to rip that chapter out!? Is that what you mean by rightly dividing the Word?
Should discuss partion at a time ? Please…before you post again, read SOMETHING about spiritual gifts during the history of Christianity or even during the Reformation. You can deny modern Pentecostalism but you cannot deny ALL of church history… or maybe you can! lol It’s anything goes here.
AFTER SOME OF THE SIGN GIFTS FAILED, VANISH AWAY AND CEASED AS THE BIBLE SAID THEY WOULD. IF WE LOOK AT CHURCH HISTORY JUST ON TONGUES, YES THERE WAS TONGUES LONG BEFORE WE HEARD ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK OF ACTS. BUT ONE CAN NOT OVERLOOK THAT SPEAKING IN TONGUES WAS PRACTICED BY EVIL IDOL WORSHIPPERS. SO READING HISTORY ACCOUNTS WE MUST BARE BE IN MIND THAT NOT ALL TONGUES ARE FROM GOD.
TONGUES WAS AND IS practiced among the following non-Christian religions of the world; the Peyote cult among the North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, Shamans in the Sudan, the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa, the Shago cult in Trinidad, the Voodoo cult in Haiti, the Aborigines of South American and Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia, the Shamans in Greenland and the Tibetan monks.
The above are just a few examples –the list goes on and they are all doing essentially the exact same thing as Christian “tongue-speakers”.
Satan can also have people talk in tongues also, and we need to carefully consider that when we talk about the gift of tongues.
OUT OF THE 9 GIFTS WHY WOULD PAUL ONLY MENTION THAT 3 WOULD STOP OR CEASE ? WHY NOT ALL THE GIFTS CEASE WITH YOUR INTERPRETATION WHEN THE “PERFECT” COMES ?
WHY ONLY TONGUES, PROPHECY AND KNOWLEDGE ?
You are a ‘cessationist’ that is clear.
NOT COMPLETELY A CESSATIONIST IF I CAN FIND OUT THAT IT IS NOT TRUE ACCORDING TO THE WORD.
But I really hope your claim that ‘tongues will cease’ is based on MUCH more than ONE verse taken OUT OF CONTEXT.
I Corinthians 13 v 8 “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, THEY SHALL CEASE; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”
WHY WOULD THESE 3 SIGN GIFTS CEASE IN DIFFERENT WAYS ? Does it refer to different time periods ? OR DOES FAIL, VANISH AWAY AND CEASE mean the same thing ?
1) Prophecies, they SHALL FAIL.
2) Knowledge SHALL VANISH AWAY.”
3) Tongues SHALL CEASE?
JUST LOOKING AT PROPHECIES SHALL FAIL. WHY WOULD THEY FAIL as per YOUR INTERPRETATION JESUS HAS COME. WHAT WOULD MAKE PROPHECIES FAIL WHEN THE PERFECT JUSUS is here ? ?
Verse 10: “But when that which is PERFECT is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”
WHEN PAUL WAS WRITING to the CORINTHIANS HE DID NOT HAVE THE FULL REVELATION OF GODS WORD as he would have by the time THE BOOK OF REVELATION was witten. HE WROTE MANY BOOKS AFTER CORINTHIANS AND HE RECEIEVED MORE KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECIES AS HE CONTINUED TO WRITE THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE. SO AT THE STAGE OF 1 AND 2 CORINTHIANS PAUL ONLY NEW THESE THINGS IN PARTS AS HE HAD NOT HAD FULL REVELATION. ONCE ALL THE books of the BIBLE WERE WRITTEN THEN THAT WHICH WAS IN PART SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH.
James 1:25 “For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the PERFECT LAW , the law of LIBERTY, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
James 2;12 “So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the LAW OF LIBERTY.”
WHEN DID THE “PERFECT” LAW OF LIBERTY COME ? WHEN ALL THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE WERE WRITTEN ? JESUS IS NOT GOING TO JUDGE US ON WHAT YOU OR I BELIEVE WHAT SALVATION IS, WE ARE GOING TO BE JUDGED BY WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT SALVATION IS.
2 Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God MAY BE COMPLETE, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
WE CAN BECOME THE PERFECT MAN AS WE KNOW ALL THERE IS TO KNOW IN THE WORD.
There is only one ‘perfect’ one and it is not the church, or the Bible, etc. It is Jesus Christ and his promised return to this troubled world.
THE GREEK WORD translated as “PERFECT” is the word “teleion”. It means something that is complete, perfect, whole, full-grown, ripe, mature, or adult. The word can be used in the nominative or accusative form, it refers to a single thing, and can refer to something that is either masculine or neuter. The fact that it is “that which is perfect” and not “he who is perfect” indicates that we are referring to a thing (neuter) AND NOT A PERSON.
The WHOLE passage (verses 8 to 13) repeat the same idea. Here are 3 translations that should help you understand what Paul was trying to explain.
AMPLIFIED
8 Love never fails [it never fades nor ends]. But as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for the gift of special knowledge, it will pass away.
FIRSTLY WE START WITH ALL THE GIFTS NOW WHAT HAPPENS TO 3 OF THE GIFTS ? ONE SHALL FAIL, THE OTHER SHALL VANISH AWAY. AND THE OTHER SHALL CEASE?
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part [for our knowledge is fragmentary and incomplete].
AS EXPLAINED ABOVE PAUL ONLY KNEW IN PART WHEN HE WROTE CORINTHIANS AS HE HAD RECEIVED THE FULL COMPLETE WHOLE AS HE HAD NOT WRITTEN ALL THE OTHER BOOKS OF THE BIBLE YET.
10 But when that which is complete and perfect comes, that which is incomplete and partial will pass away.
VERSE 10 IS JESUS “when that which is complete and perfect comes” WHEN WAS JESUS COMPLETE ?
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
EXAMPLE OF LEANING MORE AND MORE AS GOD GAVE PAUL MORE AND MORE REVELATION.
12 For now [in this time of imperfection] we see in a mirror dimly [a blurred reflection, a riddle, an enigma], but then [when the time of perfection comes we will see reality] face to face. Now I know in part [just in fragments], but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known [by God].
13 And now there remain: faith [abiding trust in God and His promises], hope [confident expectation of eternal salvation], love [unselfish love for others growing out of God’s love for me], these three [the choicest graces]; but the greatest of these is love.
SO IF YOU SAY THAT JESUS REFERS TO THE “PERFECT” THEN HOW CAN FAITH AND HOPE REMAIN WHEN JESUS HAS COME ? FAITH and HOPE IS NOT NEEDED WHEN JESUS IS HERE. WHY BECAUSE OUR FAITH AND HOPE HAS BEEN FULFILLED AT JESUS COMMING.
THE ONLY GIFT THAT REMAINS WHEN JESUS COMES IS LOVE, WHY BECAUSE LOVE LASTS FOREVER. EVEN AFTER JESUS HAS COME BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE.
Now in this context keep reading the next verse and remember the chapters don’t exist in the original manuscripts.
14Living Bible (TLB)
1 Corinthians 14 v 1 “Let love be your greatest aim; nevertheless, ask also for the special abilities the Holy Spirit gives, and especially the gift of prophecy, being able to preach the messages of God.”
KJV
“Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.”
Paul teaches that Christians should ‘desire spiritual gifts’. Or do you want to rip that chapter out!? Is that what you mean by rightly dividing the Word?
WHY DID PAUL WRITE TO THE CORINTHIANS? THEY WERE A DISGRACE TO GOD.
NOT RIPING OUT ANY CHAPTER. Christians should ‘desire spiritual gifts’, YES NO PROBLEM THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONTRDICT ITSELF. THE TIME PAUL WROTE TO THE CHURCH AT CORINTH THE SIGN GIFTS WERE THERE AND OPERATING SO NO PROBLEM IN WHAT PAUL SAID. BUT PAUL ALSO SAID LET’S NOT FORGET THAT THE GIFTS WOULD SOON BE DONE AWAY WITH”.
LET’S LOOK AT PAULS SIGN GIFTS OF HEALING. AS YOU KNOW PAUL HAD A POWERFULL HEALING MINISTRY. . BUT WHAT HAPPENED TOWARDS THE END OF PAULS MINISTRY.
It is clear that the gift of healing has ceased because, as in Philippians, Paul was no longer able to heal, even his co-workers. Timothy was suffering stomach problems and frequent infirmities (1 Tim. 5:23) and Paul can’t heal him, doesn’t recommend that he go to a healer in the church, doesn’t send a prayer cloth or a bottle of anointing oil (remember the miracles of some 8 years earlier in Acts 19:11-12). Likewise in 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul has to leave behind his co-worker Trophimus who had fallen sick on the last journey. Paul’s gift of healing (Acts 28:9) was no longer operating in Philippians 2:27, 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20.
JUST AN EXAMPLE SIGN GIFTS WERE FADING AWAY ?
Its just like John 3:16 ” For God so loved the world that HE gave his only begotten Son, whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life”
We all take this scripture and believe it is for all in this entire World. BUT this verse is only talking to Israel not the whole we perceive today.
So This point is related to point two in that many free will proponents confuse the meaning of choice and decision with their concept of free will.
So we see that because words can have varied meanings, depending upon the context in which they are used, we must from the outset establish exactly what it is we are discussing.
What is your definition of FREE WILL
Where the discussion of free will most frequently comes into play in churches today is in regard to a person’s ability to accept or reject the gospel. It is this area where we will focus our discussion.
I think your last sentence is a bit of an understatement: It should read “I’m not presenting you with an alternative opinion, but rather with hard solid scientific and biblical proof that it is not real.” Honestly, you nailed it!
I inadvertently skipped Part 6 and 7 when I originally posted – they are included below.
No offence Kavik but you did not nail it.
There are major factual errors (sorry ‘God Knows’ obviously you don’t know) of the existence of ‘spiritual gifts’ from the early church through the Middle and Dark Ages to the modern era.
Kavik: “It is interesting to note that the whole concept of modern Pentecostal/Charismatic ‘tongues’ originated right about same the time that ‘spiritualism’ became popular in the US and Europe.”
http://www.truthforthelastdays.com/baptismandgifts/baptismandgifts35.html
The above link is a good start for researching the topic.
I’m not offended by your article Kavik and you make some good points but you make dozens of assertions with zero references, no sources, no bibliography. It’s all YOUR opinion.
This is a fail in ‘writing essays 101’.
For example:
Kavik: “From the many examples I have seen however, it is absolutely no different than how other faith traditions that practice glossolalia connect to their deities.”
What examples Kavic? Please provide a source so I can check for myself. (Obviously not a problem for God Knows who swallows it all without need of a reference! lol)
That’s enough for the moment. I’m off to pray in tongues! lol
PART 6 –
Some Thoughts on Acts / Pentecost –
In reading the Biblical account of what transpired on Pentecost, it is rather obvious that this is not the same phenomenon as the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic “speaking in tongues”.
The description of the event is virtually an ancient ‘textbook example’ of what is known as xenoglossia or xenoglossy – the ability to speak in a REAL language the speaker has in no way, shape or form ever been exposed to.
With respect to what transpired however, there are a few alternative possibilities which must be considered:
It is possible the Pentecost narrative has a much less dramatic reality and was enhanced, as stories often are, long before ever being committed to writing, eventually becoming the version we have today.
We are told that there were Jews from all over gathered in Jerusalem. If we look at the countries mentioned, almost all are within the Mediterranean basin, a very heavily Hellenized area – virtually everyone would have had some familiarity with Greek in various degrees; it was in many respects the ‘English’ of its day.
It is quite possible it was simply just the apostles preaching to the people in Greek, and the story was enhanced to how we have it recorded today (people hearing them in their local native languages).
The true miracle here may have simply been the apostles finding the courage to go out and preach; these were, we are told, people supposedly literally in fear of their lives behind locked doors after the execution of their leader, Jesus. The gift of the Spirit may have been simply the courage for them to overcome this fear. The language used to speak to the masses simply Greek – understood in various degrees by virtually everyone in the Greco-Roman world. See part 5 regarding how Jews regarded praising and praying to “their” God in a language other than Hebrew.
Another possibility to consider which is frequently argued is that it was not a miracle of speaking so much as one of hearing – these people HEARD them in their various native languages.
With regard to xenoglossia, the fact is, is that there are today no known solid, provable cases – upon closer scrutiny and examination, even the best known cases have proven not to be true examples of xenoglossia as all speakers were at some time or another exposed to the target language they were exhibiting in their xenoglossy.
Despite the above, the Pentecostal/Charismatic community is rife with occurrences of xenoglossy. Unfortunately, most examples reported are not backed by any details or specifics – it amounts to essentially nothing more than general hearsay and, I suspect, people thinking that what they are speaking is such-and-such a language. In a way it is kind of too bad – a few well documented cases to study would be welcomed.
What is very noticeable in Pentecostal/ Charismatic circles is that Hebrew and/or Aramaic seem to be THE “go to” language(s) for supposed instances of xenoglossia. Such instances are always accompanied by an all too common story of how/where it occurred. At their core, they are all the same underlying story. For all intents and purposes, “the story” has been built up and developed over the past several years to almost urban legend status amongst the Pentecostal/Charismatic community.
The underlying core story can be quickly summarized as follows: an individual (usually a preacher) is speaking in tongues to a crowd. Very conveniently in the crowd there always seems to be this one Jewish guy (or lady) who, of course, recognizes the ‘tongue’ as Hebrew/Aramaic and comments to the pastor afterwards, the pastor having, of course, no clue he was speaking in said language.
As the saying goes, if I had a dollar for every version and variation of this story I have heard……
The ‘story’ is problematic and rather dubious on several levels: Why a person of the Jewish faith (presumably a practicing Jew) would be found attending a Pentecostal/Charismatic Christian meeting/service in the first place just begs a slew of questions. Most practicing Jews, unless from Israel and speak Modern Hebrew as their native or second language, typically only have a cursory knowledge of (Biblical) Hebrew and even less Aramaic.
Hebrew and Aramaic are only used in prayers which are usually learned by rote; the same way pre- Vatican II Catholics learned common prayers in Latin. Many Jews I personally know can read Hebrew (they learnt to do so for their bar/bat mitzvahs), but have no clue what they’re actually reading/saying.
These “tongues being realized as Hebrew/Aramaic” stories are frankly, rather sketchy at best. It is interesting to note that it always seems to be some more obscure, lesser known (i.e. more unverifiable by multiple speakers) language; it is never a more common language like German, French, or Spanish (though there have been a few cases of Spanish reported).
If such claims are to ever be taken seriously, they need to be considerably more well documented than what amounts to just hearsay as this just serves to hype up the validity of tongues, but I’m not sure the nature of glossolalia/xenoglossia would allow for a controlled study as the speaker would need to produce the language more or less on the spot.
Many Christian practitioners will also claim or argue that they are speaking the language of angels or “angelic languages”. This too is problematic in that in traditional Jewish belief, angels speak only one language: Hebrew. This is commented on in the Mishnah (official commentaries on the Torah). The belief, according to the Mishnah, is that if a person wishes to pray, s/he can pray to an angel who will deliver the message to God (remember the meaning of ‘angel’ is ‘messenger’), but for this to happen, the prayer must be said in Hebrew, not in (what at one time was the more vernacular language) Aramaic.
The reason for this, according to Jewish belief (and also commented upon in the Mishnah) is that angels do not understand Aramaic. Thus too, if one wishes to bypass the angels and have the prayer go directly to God, the person prays in Aramaic. Indeed, some Jewish traditional prayers are still specifically recited in Aramaic to this day.
Some commentaries in the Mishnah opine that angels do in fact understand Aramaic; they just do not hold the language in very high regard. Thus, if they hear a prayer in Aramaic, they are likely to ignore it as it is not considered to be of much value. This opinion is not shared by the majority of believers however; more common is the belief that angels simply do not understand Aramaic as they speak only Hebrew.
Still other comments found in the Mishnah state that each of the seventy nations mentioned in Genesis had an angel assigned to that nation (Israel’s for example, was Michael) and that angel spoke only the language of that country and no other.
Obviously, in this case and in traditional Hebrew belief (the belief that the apostles would have grown up in), there is only one angelic language, and it’s a real language at that: Hebrew. To assert that tongues are the “language of angels” is simply nonsense. Further, the only instances in the Bible where angels are speaking, they are speaking in a real language to human beings.
If one wants to go even one step further and get somewhat esoteric, angels are pure spirit, some would say ‘light beings’; if indeed they do communicate with one another, one may be quite assured it is most definitely not by anything that could even remotely be construed as (human) language.
The fact that Jews believe that angels speak only one language gives some additional insight into the concept of prayer in a given religion only being able to be offered in one (maybe two) language(s) at most. See the comment on Corinthians further down.
PART 7 –
A Few Thoughts on Corinthians –
As far as people quoting Corinthians as support of Christian glossolalia – as one writer put it….
“1 Cor.12-14 – This passage sequence seems to be the general ‘go to’ for evidencing glossolalia, however, Paul is referring to real normal human languages here, not glossolalia. Essentially he is simply saying that if a person prays in a language (real language native to that person) and no one else in the general audience understands that language, then it does no good to the people listening as no one can understand what is being said except God. Therefore, if a person were to do that, what s/he is saying should be translated into the vernacular so that all may understand and benefit.
There are a number of analyses done on this passage in comparing the words used for ‘language/tongues’ (and words added to the passage in subsequent translations over the centuries) in which all draw the same conclusion; namely, that ‘tongues’ are real normal human languages being discussed. To paraphrase a bit from an article written about the ‘tongues’ described in Paul’s letter:
“Paul is not a proponent of speech that is not understandable (1 Cor. 14:9) and in 1 Cor.14:10 states that no language is without meaning. Glossolalia does not fit his definition of language. He insists that whenever foreign languages are spoken in prayer, they should be translated. Throughout the whole, he is talking about real languages with real meaning. Paul’s overriding message throughout this whole chapter is that everything done in the public worship service is supposed to be edifying to the hearers. That is his key point. He is calling for intelligibility. He is appealing for clarity. When we say something in public worship, the people in the congregation need to understand the message.”
Further, for a Jew, there was only one language in which to pray to God; Hebrew, the liturgical language of the Jewish faith – already a dead language in Paul’s time as Jews in what is now Israel spoke Aramaic. Jews spoke whatever language was spoken in the land where they lived (the Jews in Exodus for example were all speakers of Egyptian). By the time of the New Testament, many would have also spoken some Greek as well as Latin. When they went to Temple however, Hebrew was the language they prayed in as it was deemed the language of God and his people.
“Tongues” (i.e. other languages, particularly Gentile languages most of which were completely unknown to most Jews living what is now Israel), the author states, changed all that.
“For the first time ever, inspired truth was revealed by God in languages other than Hebrew. This in and of itself was a remarkable sign (some would say a miraculous sign), not only to the unbelieving Gentile hearers, but also to the unbelieving Jews. For the unbelieving Jews, it was a sign of judgement to come (Isaiah 28:11). Paul paraphrases that verse in 1 Cor. 14:21, just before saying that ‘tongues’ (foreign languages) are a sign to unbelievers. His primary meaning, then, is that tongues are a sign of judgment against the unbelieving Israelites and a token of divine grace to the Gentile unbelievers who hear the message in their own tongues/languages. So again we see that the gift of tongues was God’s declaration that the wall of partition had been broken down. Although the oracles of God had once been committed to the Jewish race alone (in Hebrew), now the message about God’s wonderful works would extend to every nation, people, and tribe. That was the primary significance of the “gift of tongues”; simply God’s message being delivered to Gentiles in their own languages. The phenomenon of glossolalia was never intended here; a pseudo-language that no one, usually including even the speaker, understood. “
Biblical “tongues” (‘glossa’ in Greek) as referenced particularly in Acts and Corinthians is to always be translated and understood as real language(s), not ecstatic utterances. The word ‘tongue’ as it appears in the KJV of the Bible would, when written in the 1600’s, have been understood by anyone reading it to mean a ‘(real) language’. In the English of the 1600’s the word ‘tongue’ was simply the common man’s way of referring to a language. Further, the word ‘unknown’ frequently found in front of ‘tongue(s)’ was an addition to the KJV and was never in the original Greek. So more properly translated, where the KJV has “unknown tongue”, it should be understood to be simply “(foreign) language”. Paul’s quote of “though I speak with the tongues of men and angles…” is simply a hyperbole he used for emphasis in trying to get his point across to his audience – in traditional Jewish belief angles are said to speak only one language (and a real one at that): Hebrew. As one writer put it “In the Greek, it literally reads: “If with the tongues of men I speak and of angels.” That construction is unique and occurs only here in the New Testament. The grammar suggests that Paul intentionally separated the tongues of men from the tongues of angels, articulating the normal expression of the gift of foreign languages before emphatically inserting a hypothetical hyperbole.”
What one must understand is that in many ancient cultures (in this case the Jewish culture) the language of prayer was very specific. Something we really don’t have today so it’s hard to relate to. In many cultures, when you prayed, you prayed in one specific prescribed language…period. For Jews, this was Hebrew. To do so in another language was simply unheard of and unthinkable (though Aramaic was allowed in some cases for some prayers). As odd and even nonsensical as it sounds to us today, for a Jew at that time, to hear someone praising or praying to THEIR God in say Galatian or Assyrian, or even Greek for that matter, would have been utterly shocking.
Another way of looking at it is that, for example, I could teach you a poem or perhaps even a short song (or both) in say, Welsh, and you could learn it and recite/sing it perfectly well, even to near native fluency with enough practice, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you understand Welsh or even exactly one word of what you’re actually saying/singing. As Paul states, “your spirit is praying/singing, but your understanding is unfruitful”. So, yes, “tongues” certainly can, and did, refer to real languages.
As another writer put it, “Think of it this way; if I showed up at a Bible study and began to speak in German, but no one else in the room could speak German, I might impress a few people, but no one would understand me. So if I speak in a language that no one else in the room can speak, I am in fact not speaking to men, but to God (who alone can understand all languages). Anything I say would be a mystery to those in the room. That is what Paul was trying to convey. Paul was grateful they had this gift which was intended for unbelievers, but rebuked them for using it to edify themselves and not others.”
He goes on to state, “The true manifestation of speaking to people in foreign languages was given regulations so that the church could be edified and remain united in love (1 Cor. 13:1). The main regulation was that in the church assembly another person must interpret the one speaking in a foreign language so that the church could understand and be edified (1 Cor. 14:26). Above all, love for other believers must take priority over all of the spiritual manifestations. If there is no love then the use of any of the true spiritual manifestations must be restricted.”
It may also be argued too that in Corinth, one of the main pre-Christian temples was the Temple of Aphrodite – contemporary writers state that people used glossolalia as part of the religious practices/ceremonies at Corinth as a means of connecting to the goddess. This practice may have also been brought into the Christian church in Corinth, and Paul in his letters also attempts to correct the situation.
After studying the phenomenon mainly from a linguistic and, to lesser extent, cultural perspective, and after analyzing many examples of spoken and transcribed glossolalia, I am forced to conclude that glossolalia is indeed very much a learned behavior – anyone, young or old, can learn to do it. With some that learning comes easier than for others. The more one is exposed to the phenomenon in various (typically religious) settings, the more easily it is produced and the more complex it can become.
Simply stated, glossolalia/”speaking in tongues” is nothing more than an advanced form of word play done within the subconscious and its production by anyone may boil down to simply a matter of not being afraid to “play with sounds” – something almost anyone over the age of four or so has forgotten how to do.
Glossolalia is almost always found in use in a religious context and its usage should be regarded as simply a tool by which the practitioner may connect to the divine (or for some, the spirit world), but in and of itself, glossolalia is neither divine nor miraculous.
To sum up Christian glossolalia –
For some Christians, glossolalia is a way for that person to become closer to God (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that). They are taught from a young age to believe that the tool (i.e. ‘tongues’) is the actual medium by which one speaks to God or God speaks/reveals to man. From the many examples I have seen however, it is absolutely no different than how other faith traditions that practice glossolalia connect to their deities. Tongues/Glossolalia is to these Christian believers a very real and spiritually meaningful phenomenon, but consisting of emotional release via non-linguistic ‘free vocalizations’ at best – the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech.
PART 9 (last) –
What is again unique with the Christian version is that the glossolalist channels the ‘message’ of the Holy Spirit, the interpreter, with whom the glossolalist must also work with (in most cases), channels the message of the Holy Spirit into the local vernacular, thus interpreting the message channeled.
As previously stated, the glossa/tongue itself is really almost irrelevant; it’s simply the tool by which the channeling is performed – the channeler could just as well be reciting a Tibetan meditation chant. In addition, neither the glossolalist nor the interpreter need be in a ‘trance’; this is conscious channeling, not trance channeling. Neither is in any more of a trance than a person would be say engrossed in reading a book.
It is interesting to note that the whole concept of modern Pentecostal/Charismatic ‘tongues’ originated right about same the time that ‘spiritualism’ became popular in the US and Europe. Things such as channeling and séances were all the rage and quite popular events. Might it be argued that some Christians simply wanted to “jump on the bandwagon” and thus created their own brand of spirit challenging? I think an argument could indeed be made.
The concept of Channeling however is generally frowned upon in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles for fear of channeling, as Pentecostals put it, “a demon or even the Devil himself”. In some circles it is not uncommon to even “test” tongues as it is believed that some are real and some are false/demonic.
It should be noted, as stated further above, that if glossolalia is non-Christian, it is automatically deemed “demonic” in origin despite the fact it’s produced the exact same way. The most common test administered seems to be the so-called “McGraw test” which is rather elaborate in that the spirit who is “giving the tongue” is the entity that is actually questioned (sort of like an exorcism – the entity is questioned directly, not the practitioner/person possessed). I suspect this is the reason for the testing – i.e. people may channel an “unwanted spirit” and thus the validity of the channeled entity must be questioned and tested.
The so-called “private prayer language” is essentially the same thing – channeling through the tool of glossolalia. The difference here is that no interpretation is required as the message is going to the deity, not coming from the deity. One may argue though that there is no channeling with ‘private prayer language’; it’s simply ‘praying from the heart’ (i.e. subconsciously) via the medium of glossolalia.
Judging from the myriad of articles appearing on the internet, this constant and very real preoccupation (arguably more obsession in some cases) of discerning “real tongues” from “false tongues” and/or “demonic tongues” is exactly the reaction one would expect when someone is channeling – i.e. the fear of channeling an unwanted entity.
There may be another way of viewing “false tongues”, however. It may be argued that “false tongues” aren’t really ‘false’ in the literal sense; the speaker is indeed producing glossolalia just as anyone else would, the difference being that there is no channeling occurring – it’s just the glossic utterances. The closest analogy I can think of would be something akin to picking up a tool and playing around with it, but not really using it for the purpose intended. The person is producing glossolalia, but not using it (in the Christian sense anyway) for the purpose of connecting to God/Holy Spirit to either effect a message or offer a prayer.
In addition to the above, I have noticed in a few examples where it is very obvious that people are putting a definite conscious effort into the process. The result is that their speech comes off as very atypical of a normal glossic utterance. I realize that this is contradictory to what I have previously stated – i.e. the actual ‘glossa’ is irrelevant; it doesn’t matter what sounds are produced, but in some cases it’s not hard to tell people are clearly making way too much of a conscious effort to produce it. In these cases, what they are producing is not true glossolalia; glossolalia simply does not involve that much of a conscious effort to produce.
Though clearly a Christian version of spirit channeling is being practiced here, it is not viewed as such by those who practice it. Practitioners are simply not taught what it is they are actually doing and in fact are taught that things like channeling are inherently evil and demonic in nature.
Even with all of the above discussion on channeling taken into consideration, as previously stated, it still fails to explain the overwhelming discrepancies in interpretations which questions the validity of the entire phenomenon and places the majority of it, I’m afraid, in the realm of “wishful thinking” at best.
As one internet commenter opined: “You spin a heavy metal record backward and some Christians will claim it’s Satan speaking, but someone can start speaking gibberish in a church and they’re ‘speaking God’s tongue’.” This seemingly double standard really gives cause to make one wonder.
People practicing tongues truly believe they have a gift; and if in practicing what is perceived as this gift, it brings them closer to God and strengthens their spiritual path, when all is said and done in the end, one may simply argue, what’s the harm?
And just a quick note for those who may be wondering – no, I am not an atheist by any means, nor am I a so-called ‘cesationist’. As a Linguist, the concept of glossolalia, specifically the Christian concept of “speaking in tongues” has always interested me.
As a final aside, for those who may have never seen a ‘tongue’ transcribed, below is an example taken right off of a YouTube video of a legitimate pastor speaking a ‘tongue’ – here’s a transcription of what the person is saying:
Káyntay háychee, háychee kéeho hóro. /kénte héči, héči kího hóro/
Máhcha keetáy lah mócho, /máča kité la móčo/
rána mahcháy nay keetáh lau. /rána mačé ne kitá lau/
Réhnah shay kée nah máhto. /rɛ’na še kí na máto/
Essentially you read the above left-hand side as if it were English – the only convention I have used is to put an accent over the syllable in the ‘word’ that receives the main stress. The ‘ay’ here is the ‘ay’ in “day”, and of course, don’t forget to trill your R’s. The ‘word’ divisions and punctuation written is an assumption only and is based solely on the speaker’s intonation and phrasing. The right-hand side is a basic IPA phonetic transcription.
PART 8 –
Thus far, the concept of glossolalia has been examined, i.e. the actual speech being produced. But what about this concept of the glossa not really being relevant to the message? As stated earlier, there really appears to be two separate but related parts to the process. If what Christian practitioners say about ‘speaking in tongues’ is taken into account, we may postulate a wholly different view of the entire concept of Christian glossolalia.
Let me now turn to the process, or methodology of how the actual “message” is received.
Here’s what a few practitioners have written about it:
“Speaking in tongues is understood to be not irrational but supra-rational utterance. It is not the forsaking of the rational for the nonsensical, hence gibberish, but the fulfillment and transcendence of the rational in the spiritual. Charismatics are not disturbed by linguists who claim that glossolalia has no observable language structure, for if such were the case, speaking in tongues would not be spiritual but rational speech. Further, speaking in tongues is not viewed as ecstatic utterance, in the sense of uncontrolled, highly emotional, perhaps frenzied activity. While containing a strong emotional (even a rational) element, glossolalia runs deeper than the emotions. Both reason (or mind) and emotions are aspects of the human psyche (psyche), whether on the conscious or subconscious level. Speaking in tongues is thus understood to be trans-psychical; it belongs to the realm of the spirit (pneuma).”
Another (from a pastor) states it this way:
“Man is a spirit; he has a soul and lives in a body. If this entire process is approached from a soulish standpoint, one completely misunderstands these gifts. The soul of man (mind, will and intellect) is unable to operate in these gifts. Because these gifts are given by the Holy Spirit, they must function via a man’s spirit. The gift of tongues and interpretations functions in all three realms of the triune of man (spirit, mind, and body). The spirit provides faith, the soul provides willingness and yielding, and the body provides the means through which these gifts operate (tongue and mouth). One must understand the spirit to understand the function of these gifts. If one approaches the gifts from a purely mental paradigm, one will never understand the gifts. It’s like watching a baseball game applying and trying to apply football rules. Nothing makes sense. You cannot explain spiritual truths from only a soulish and physical perspective. Miracles are in another dimension and cannot be experienced if one stays in the physical and soulish realm. Faith is a product of the heart and it is only by faith that these spiritual gifts are received and function.”
In examining statements such as the above, one can almost summarize them all fairly neatly into a simple concept: we have people speaking in a ‘tongue’ – these people receive or send a message to the divine – if a message is received from the divine, another person who is also attuned will offer an interpretation of said message. If the message is one that is sent (i.e. via so-called ‘private prayer language’), there is no need for an interpretation. This is all done on a more transcendental “spiritual” plane; one yields oneself to the process, one allows the Holy Spirit to speak/pray through them.
One may certainly argue semantics here, but there’s a word to describe the above scenario; channeling. Specifically, direct spirit-channeling. It is something which is an integral part and goes hand in hand with the practice of glossolalia in virtually all other non-Christian traditions.
Speaking in tongues and, more to the point, interpretation of tongues can be viewed as nothing more than a Christian form of spirit channeling. Practitioners are simply channeling the Holy Spirit via the tool of glossolalia. Like other traditions that practice channeling, the method used to initiate channeling is not necessarily related to the actual message. Practitioners will argue that channeling and what happens when one is speaking in tongues are two different things entirely however, it really boils down to semantics – both describe essentially the exact same thing.
The main argument is that the Holy Spirit is praying though the practitioner. The Holy Spirit, however, being one of three aspects of God, does not need to pray. As one person put it to me, “Channeling is the belief that a person’s body has being taken over by a spirit for the purpose of imparting wisdom. This does not happen with the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit.”
Really? What do you think is happening during speaking and interpretation of tongues!? Call it what you will, it’s channeling.
PART 4 –
The other huge issue with glossolalia which seems to strongly diminish its validity as something divine in nature is the supposed interpretation of a given string or strings. The results of the many studies done were very non-inspiring: Yes, there are people who can supposedly interpret a glossic string; however, if one were to record said string and play it to ten different people who are said to have the ability to interpret; you essentially get ten totally different answers. One might naturally expect an interpretation to be pertinent to those present in the congregation who are hearing the interpretation, and in fact, interpretations often do deal with current events or situations within the church/congregation. Typically however, all interpretations are very general, non-specific, and often deal with known issues/situations in a particular congregation/church, or are just very generic praise type phrases/messages. No two ‘interpretations’ of a given string of glossolalia are ever the same. They may on occasion be very similar, but given the generality of the subject matter of interpretations, that would inevitably be expected.
To further clarify the above…..There is of course a very distinct difference between translation and interpretation – interpretation allows for a much wider range of variation in meanings and details, whilst translation, by its very definition, concentrates on the specifics and subtleties of what is actually being said. It is understood that Christian ‘tongues’ are said to be interpreted, not translated.
The above concept is very straightforward and non-problematic, but it does beg the question of “if ‘tongues’ are supposedly language, why must they be ‘interpreted’ and not translated?”
As a bit of an aside, there are a few places in the Bible where Jesus, speaking his native Aramaic, is directly quoted – Mark 5:41 for example. In many later versions of the English Bible, they will give the phrase in Aramaic and then the English by the phrase “which is interpreted as….”. I find this very misleading in that with every one of these cases, “interpreted” is to be understood as “translated”; the writer of the original text was simply writing the quote as it was spoken in Aramaic, and then offering the reader the Greek translation.
Many people are misled to believe that because the phrase used is “interpreted” rather than “translated”, that these phrases were somehow Jesus’ ‘heavenly/tongue language’; they are all simply direct Aramaic quotes, nothing more. In our example, “talitha kumi” – talitha is a feminine singular noun meaning “girl”, “kumi” is the second person singular imperative “arise!”. No mystery or heavenly language here, just plain old Aramaic.
In addition, if in a group setting, one person starts an interpretation, others who may also have an interpretation and want to offer it are to stop and let the initial person finish. As I have been told, one and only one interpretation is ever offered/allowed per glossic utterance. I have also been told by some practitioners that if a message is felt to be ‘off’ or ‘questionable’, the pastor may provide a public correction of the interpretation; it’s not reinterpreted, simply evaluated, discerned, and, if need be, corrected. This however, I’m told, is a fairly rare occurrence. The end result in all cases is that nothing is ever translated; it’s interpreted.
As will be illustrated below, it’s the generalizations, non-specificity, and inconsistency within these interpretations that are problematic and beg further scrutiny.
There have been numerous studies done (Samarin (1968), Pattison (1968), Wehr (1996), just to reference a few) which have revealed some damning results and major discrepancies with respect to the interpretation of glossolalia.
In these studies, a string of glossolalia is recorded and played back to several people who are able to interpret tongues. It is a blind test such that interpreters are purposely not grouped all together but kept separate from one another – the idea here is so that each may offer his/her own interpretation without the possible influence from another interpreter. Interpretations given in these instances were quite inconsistent. In one study, they ranged from praying for the health of someone’s children, to praising God for a recent successful church fund-raising event. No two have ever been remotely similar to one another other than that fact that they were either praise related or message related (but never the same underlying “core” message).
One study, conducted by a Frenchman in the late 1990’s, went so far as to present two samples to interpreters; one being a recorded sample of glossolalia obtained at a church service, the other being simply the Pater Noster recited twice through in a very broad Scots. Needless to say, interpretations were offered for both samples (much to the dismay of the Scotsman who recorded the “Oor Faither”).
One (former) speaker put it this way which also speaks to the repetition of a particular string or strings of glossic utterance: “I realized that my tongues-vocabulary wasn’t very big. I mean, I would essentially say the same 20 words over and over again, just in different arrangements and sequences. I brought this to the attention of my pastor and he told me that even though I was saying “shundara” over and over again, that because it was a private prayer language, each time I said it, it meant something different. And so even though it sounded to me like I was saying the same phrase repeatedly, in reality I was not, and in fact was saying all sorts of things in the spiritual realm.”
The results illustrate the point that if the same exact glossic string is heard by several different people, you’ll inevitably get several very different, non-related interpretations. Adding support to these findings is that interpretations are often strikingly longer or shorter than the actual glossic utterance itself. If interpretations of the same glossic string are contradictory and inconsistent to one another, glossolalia/tongues fail as language by any definition.
PART 5 –
The all too common come-back to the issue of ‘multiple interpretations’ is that God/the Holy Spirit simply gives different interpretations to different people. As one writer quips (and I couldn’t have said it better myself), “Pentecostal Darwinism however does not exist – there’s no mutation or transformation of one message into several for the sake of justifying an obvious discrepancy. If this were the case, it would completely eradicate the need for glossolalia in the first place. If however the interpretation is a spiritual thing that is not really based on the sounds of the actual glossolalia, what then is the purpose of the sounds at all?”
Unless of course, discrepancies in interpretations aside, the purpose of the sounds in Christian glossolalia is viewed in the same way most other cultures/religions practicing glossolalia view it: namely, as a TOOL. The glossic utterance itself is in some respects rather irrelevant; it is simply the tool used by the practitioner by which to establish the connection to the divine (a way of preparing oneself to receive or relay a message). It is not the MEANS by which the message/praise itself is relayed. The means, it seems, is accomplished via an altogether different mechanism totally independent of the glossic utterance.
This later view changes the entire concept of glossolalia in the Christian context in that it must be viewed as a tool, not a means. This puts Christian glossolalia in line with all other cultures/faith traditions that practice it.
As an aside, this may also nicely explain the need to ‘interpret’ rather than ‘translate’. Simply put, there is nothing TO translate – the glossolalia itself, as can be seen from the above, is neither the message nor means by which said message is relayed.
One of the main differentiating features of how Christian glossolalia is practiced is that, more often than not, the speaker of the glossolalia does not also serve as the interpreter. One reason given by practitioners is that they are understood to be two separate ‘gifts’ of the Holy Spirit; one may be able to speak glossolalia, but not be able to interpret, conversely one may be able to interpret but not speak. Occasionally, a person may be gifted with both abilities. This notably differs from how other cultures practice it where the speaker frequently also serves as the interpreter/relayer of the message received.
Further detracting from its validity as language, it appears that Christian glossolalia cannot be interpreted from the written text. That is, if a string is transcribed and written out, the interpreter is not able to offer an interpretation from the written text, nor it seems, are they able to offer an interpretation even if the text is read aloud by a third party, though I have never heard of an example where this has been tested.
In asking a few Pentecostals who practice glossolalia about this, their answers seem to suggest that there exists a symbiosis of sorts between the speaker and the interpreter such that the interpreter is completely dependent upon the original speaker in order to affect an interpretation. This is not how any language works – in a sense, you either understand the language or you do not; it should make no difference who is speaking it, nor should it make a difference if it’s being read aloud from a written source by the interpreter or another person.
This lends further support in viewing glossolalia as a tool rather than a means. To be perfectly fair, with respect to written text or text being read by a third party, that reading will not always carry the same emotion or timbre of the voice as the original speaker, both of which are important features of spoken language. However, neither of these should have a major effect on the ‘core’ message supposedly being relayed. This concept will come into play as I discuss “interpretation” further below as it seems to suggest that the whole phenomenon of interpretation is really something else entirely; one which is based on some mechanism other than speaking.
Glossolalia, as previously stated, is by no means exclusive to Christianity – many cultures employ glossolalia as part of their cultural traditions; from Siberia, to Borneo, to Africa, to Native America. It is all produced the exact same way, regardless of cultural or religious differences. In all of these other traditions, glossolalia is regarded for what it really is; simply a tool (like chanting, or meditation) to connect to the divine or spirit world.
Not to get too far off point, but a quick example of a very modern non-Christian glossolalia practiced is so-called “Light Language”. It is produced the same way and follows the same phonetic rules as any other glossolalia however it differs from Christian glossolalia in that the ratio of vowels to consonants seems to be greater for most speakers. It can actually come off as sounding a bit Polynesian because of this. Sound or more specifically, sound frequencies play a large part in “light language”. Speech is often interrupted by sounding out a particular tone or tones, the vibrational frequencies of which are believed to affect healing within the practitioner and/or listeners. The unique thing about “light language” glossolalia is not only can it be spoken and sung (as in Christian glossolalia), but it can also be written and even signed. What is also curious is that light language is typically not interpreted or translated – the meaning/message is supposed to resonate within the listener on a deeply subconscious level.
The point here is that even though we’re dealing with a completely different set of beliefs, practices, and traditions, practitioners of “Light Language” are doing the exact same thing that is being done in Christian glossolalia.
In this respect, it is very important to keep in mind that non-Christian practitioners of glossolalia are speaking and producing their glossolalia in the EXACT same way Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are – it can’t be stressed enough that there is absolutely ZERO difference between what they are doing and what Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are doing. For any Christian practitioner to think that simply because they are Christian and these other practitioners are not, that what these others are doing is somehow “Satanic”, “demonic”, or “false” in nature (even though you’re both doing the exact same thing in the exact same way), is utter nonsense and religiocentric in the absolute extreme.
Even if one accepts that Christian glossolalia behaves as a tool rather than a means and should be regarded as such, and that interpretation is independent of the glossic utterance; the glossic utterance being virtually irrelevant with respect to sounds, length, etc., it still fails to explain the overwhelming discrepancies in interpretations which is very problematic for postulating its supposed divine origin. It also negates the possibility of the actual glossa as being divine in nature; it’s something purely of human origin produced by practitioners in various ways by various methods. It does not need to be divine as it’s simply a tool by which the practitioner connects to the deity to affect or relay a message; the messages themselves being quite varied in nature.
PART 2 –
A recent argument for the divine nature of glossolalia presented to me was that even small children can speak in tongues and even they know that it is something that is from the Holy Spirit.
By the way as a quick aside, it’s ‘spirit’, not ‘ghost’; the word in original Greek texts is ‘pneuma’; never ‘phantasma’ or ‘optassia’.
My answer is simple. Of course they would be able to speak in tongues. Small children brought up in this religious tradition can, and do, learn to produce glossolalia from an early age. In many respects, it is actually easier for them as they are still in the process of playing with language and sounds. Because of this, the progression to full glossolalia is not a difficult one. In addition, they’ve been listening to it and have grown up in the tradition since birth – they’re simply imitating (and ultimately learning) what they’re seeing and hearing all around them. Kids at that age after all are typically very impressionable and quick to copy parents and other adults. More importantly, they are learning that it’s okay to continue to play with sounds and produce strings of speech by playing with those sounds (albeit subconsciously).
The religious significance of what they are doing is also taught from day one, so the phenomenon is immediately associated within a religious context. Kids are taught from a young age that there is something ‘special” about what they are doing. Given the above, there’s absolutely no mystery here as to how or why small children can exhibit glossolalia; not only are they just copying adults, it’s actually easier and more natural for them to produce it than it is for adults.
So what about adults? Adults new to the phenomenon will all learn it virtually the same way; by observation, repetition, imitation, positive reinforcement, and encouragement. Once a person learns the methodology behind it, glossolalia can be done at will in any setting; church, sitting in a chair at home, wherever. Initial presentation does not need to first occur in a church setting. There’s no mystery here either; it is learned by exposure to the environment or cultural/religious setting in which it occurs, and either consciously or subconsciously imitating what is occurring. Very often the individual they are imitating is usually the most prominent ‘speaker’ (the “guide” as some would call it) in the congregation.
In fact, studies have been done which show that the glossolalists from one congregation will all sound very similar to each other, yet may sound different from another congregation (all of whom sound similar to one another) – people are simply learning from and off of one another and following the guidance of the most predominant speaker in that congregation (who may or may not be the pastor), so it’s not surprising glossolalia in one congregation tends to all sound relatively the same.
Moreover, there even exist many “how to/instructional” type videos on social media such as YouTube by which an aspirant can “learn to speak in tongues”. The existence of such videos is clearly indicative of glossolalia being a learned behavior. The methods taught are virtually all identical and are somewhat methodical – in a nutshell, they teach one how to enter a somewhat meditative state and simply start babbling or to take a known word (hallelujah, for example) and start playing with the sounds in the word. This allows the mind to relax into a mild meditative state and simply start “playing” with sounds.
There is also, in some cases, the extreme desire and on the aspirant speaker’s part to exhibit the phenomenon; i.e. an extreme desire, need and/or want to be able to speak in tongues. I believe that this desire helps the spirant to overcome some of the obstacles (sounding or looking “strange”, or “ridiculous”, for example) many new learners encounter. Conversely however, from the many ‘testimonies’ I’ve read, it seems the opposite tends to be more the norm.
One speaker described the experience in this way: “First of all I realized that it is definitely a language being spoken by my mouth. I cannot with my mind imitate it, or even come close to trying to fake a language that sounds so real. I speak faster than I can speak English. I also often do things that I cannot do without God’s help, such as roll my tongue the way some German words are spoken. The language never comes from my mind, it comes out of my heart as I yield my tongue to the Holy Spirit. But I always have control, I can begin speaking it anytime, I can stop anytime, I control the volume.”
As can be seen from this descriptive example, when exhibiting glossolalia, a speaker is able to control all mechanisms of normal speech, what is being produced however is taken by the speaker to be a real language since it is not anything consciously produced (“the language never comes from my mind”). It is simply subconscious free vocalization – playing with sounds on a subconscious level. Being able to speak it faster than English is due to the oversimplification of syllable structure in glossolalia; it is quicker to vocalize using a CVCVCV pattern. Notice too with the example above, the speaker makes reference to the trilled ‘r’, something s/he does not do in normal American English speech.
As to the positive reinforcement and encouragement, in a question put to a speaker of tongues (psychohistorian.org © 2003-2016 by Auke Slotegraaf) the questioner asks: “In retrospect, was there any pressure applied on you to speak in tongues?” to which the person asked replied: “Yes, if all around you people are speaking in tongues and you keep hearing teachings and testimonies of people that speak in tongues and you are given literature about it and your teachers speak in tongues and the Bible says you should speak in tongues and people are praying for you to be able to speak in tongues then I guess you are a little pressured to speak in tongues and join the rest.”
Another describes it thus: “They then stated how I was to “yield” to the Spirit of God and allow God to speak His language, tongues, through me as I “yield” my tongue to Him. They stated for me not to speak English or Spanish but to just “let it flow”. I nodded in agreement and as they laid their hands on my forehead I closed my eyes and waited. Seconds that seemed like hours passed by as no manifestation took place. As they continued to pray they would say in between their prayers over me, “just start to move your tongue, don’t speak English, don’t speak Spanish, just flow with the Spirit” I started to think, “how do I flow? What the heck does yield mean.” I went from very excited to very nervous. “Should I say something…what should I do…oh Lord help me say something….” I thought.”
PART 3 –
Yet another describes his experience this way: “My pastor devoted hours working with us and teaching those who hadn’t received the gift yet some techniques to start speaking in tongues. He told us that first we had to clear our minds of any thoughts. This was because our minds wouldn’t understand what we are doing and would want to war against and question what our mouth was doing, and so it was important not to overthink it, or think it at all. Then he told us some methods that would help get us going. He used the analogy that it was like starting a car on a cold day. Asking to speak in tongues was like turning the key, and all you needed was a little kick to help the engine turn over and get it to start roaring. These were some of his suggestions:
1 If you know a foreign language, start speaking that and ask God to transform it into a different one on the go.
2. Repeat the words “shoulda-bought-a-honda-couldove-bought-a-honda. or “shabbada-shabbada shaka-whaoh” over and over again. This will train your mouth and your tongue to lose control and get used to making strange sounds.
3. Pick a phrase from the scriptures and say it over and over again, as fast as you can, until the words become unintelligible in your mouth. When you can’t say it any faster take a leap of faith and say the first things that come to your mind-oftentimes this will be your new tongues.
4. Start making intercession with groaning that can’t be uttered. Start to groan and moan while curled up in a ball on the ground, from deep within your chest, and visualize your sounds transforming into words.
5. Read Bible verses but take out the vowels from what you’re reading, and try to pronounce them all the while asking God to give you the gift- this oftentimes acts like a kick start.
6. Hold your hands over your ears so that you can’t hear yourself speaking, and start saying words and making sounds as the spirit leads, and then have a friend come over and listen. The reason you are plugging your ears is because as you are getting disappointed with the English words that are coming out of your mouth and then losing faith, which will kill it. If you do start speaking in tongues, your friends will be able to hear it and confirm it for you.”
In almost every example I have read of people’s experience in “beginning to speak in tongues” (read as “learning how to produce glossolalia”), there is a very distinct feeling of the aspirant being, one might say, ‘gently forced’ (peer pressure at its extreme) into speaking….anything, so long as it isn’t English or, apparently, a recognizable language
In many ‘testimonies’ I have read and seen, it seems that for many the entire experience was rather traumatic; many people felt, for lack of a better way of putting it, “forced” to speak or utter something and many describe being made to feel somehow inferior if they did not start uttering something…anything. It could be argued, that this is amounts to almost a reinforcement or proof of some kind to the ‘facilitators’ that what they were attempting to get the aspirant to do was indeed working – that their ability to cause others to produce glossolalia (in the context of a religious experience) is legitimate and valid. It should be noted that this pressure put upon the aspirant to produce glossolalia on the spot, as it were, is not the experience of everyone, but from testimonies I have read or heard, it seems to occur much more frequently than one would be led to believe. Further, it should be noted that the experience for the facilitators appears to always be a very positive one regardless of the outcome for the aspirant.
With regard to the above, as one writer nicely summed it up: “The charismatic movement appeals to the emotions. People like to be emotionally charged. The problem however is it is so experience centered that the truth of the Scripture is often overlooked. Experience cannot dictate doctrine! People are looking for fulfillment and satisfaction. Many are promised they can find this satisfaction by speaking in tongues.”
Why the reluctance and, in some cases, people agonizing over not having the ability to produce glossic utterances? I believe that one of the main hindrances most people face is that they are simply afraid to play and experiment with sounds perhaps out of fear of “sounding/looking ridiculous” or “not getting/doing it right”. One must remember that from a very early age we are taught to “use your words”, as some parents say, i.e. relate what you wish to say in intelligible speech, stop babbling. In short, we are taught as small children that playing with sounds is not something that should be done or encouraged, rather we must learn how to form those sounds into intelligible speech. As adults, it’s hard to revert back to that stage in our language development when playing with sounds was actually something fun.
Whether children or adults, examples such as the above clearly demonstrate that tongues is learned behavior. Being placed into an environment where glossolalia is literally all around you and is made to be something that you are clearly expected to perform, the pressure put on you, the frenetic fervor of the moment, it is no surprise that so many pick up the methodology and ability to do so rather quickly. One could even argue examples such as those described above are representative of extreme peer pressure or a type of “soft conditioning” rather than positive reinforcement and encouragement.
A very strong argument for tongues as being divine in nature frequently referred to by proponents is a study done by the University of Pennsylvania on the phenomenon of glossolalia. In a nutshell, the study determined via SPECT imaging that when a person exhibits glossolalia, the language producing areas of the brain are not really engaged; i.e. ‘tongues’ do not originate in the speech center of the brain. These results have been used to support its supposed divine origins or that a person is not in control of what s/he is saying. After reading the study, I would argue the results are exactly as what one would expect; it stands to reason the brain’s language producing center is not really being engaged simply because glossolalia is not language. It’s just free vocalization –playing with sounds which do not require the language producing centers in the brain to be overly engaged. The results are somewhat inconclusive in that they can be skewed to equally support either argument.
What is also interesting is that most, if not all, practitioners comment that they could never reproduce (either speaking or writing) the glossic utterances they speak, nor could they remember or repeat what they said after having just spoke it. The reason most give is that, being filled with the Spirit, it is the Spirit doing the speaking through them and, as such, they simply cannot reproduce or repeat what they just said.
The reason for this however is considerably less mysterious. To put it rather frankly, when an individual is rambling off a string of syllables at random, completely ad lib with no thought as to what is actually being produced, it is virtually impossible to reproduce the exact same string vocally, let alone trying to recall enough to be able to write it out. It is very much like a jazz singer ad libbing a verse or two by “scatting”; if they sing the song ten times, no two verses sung via scatting will ever be quite the same. Like glossolalia, there’s simply not that much thought process that goes into what the syllables will actually sound like making exact repetition difficult at best.
It must be clearly noted however that I am NOT comparing the concept of “scatting” to glossolalia – again, to be quite frank, scatting requires quite a bit more thought process than glosolaia; there’s actually much more going on with respect to actual thought processes – the musical phrasing, pitch, tone, fluidity of speech, etc., are just a few of the things required of the singer to be thinking about. Glossolalia on the other hand, does not need to take any of this into account – it is complete free vocalization. That said, there are people who will also “sing in the spirit”, i.e. sing in glossolalia. From the examples I have seen and heard of this particular version of glossolalia, it appears that the actual melody is created to fit the words; rarely (indeed, if ever) I think, is the melody written out first then sung in tongues. It’s the same process though – free vocalization only instead of speaking, the practitioner is just randomly producing a tune- sort of like putting random syllables to ad lib humming.
Some practitioners will argue that there are “thousands of languages spoken in the world today, how can anyone know that ‘tongues’ are not one of them?” Yes, there are indeed thousands of languages spoken in the world today – unfortunately not one of them is remotely close to what people are producing in their glossolalia/tongues. Real language is unmistakable, as is glossolalia.
OK – since some have asked, I’m posting the original long post – I apologize in advance for the inordinate length. Because of the length, I have to post it in several parts (they’re labeled).
Since my study is somewhat ongoing I would welcome comments in hopes of learning more about this phenomenon.
PART 1 (of 9)
Let me preface this post by making it clear that it is not written with any deliberate intention of offending anyone who practices glossolalia (a/k/a ‘speaking in tongues’). I am of the belief that all people are free to choose their own spiritual path and though I may not agree with the tenants and practices of your particular path, it does not mean I should try and dissuade you from it and that is not what I am attempting here. That said, I do take a hard look at the phenomenon of glossolalia below and discuss it in a rather frank manner and acknowledge that the results may or may not paint the Pentecostal/Charismatic concept of “tongues” in nearly the same light as its practitioners view it. I have tried to keep the sections somewhat orderly, but the ideas presented may skip around a bit in places – these are more or less notes; not a formal paper. Where I have quoted individuals, I have not given names or sources simply for the sake of their anonymity – all individuals quoted come from various online sources.
As a Linguist, I have studied the phenomenon of glossolalia from both a linguistic and cultural point of view. My primary concentration was on the linguistic aspect of this phenomenon.
During the course of my study, it soon became clear that there are really two separate phenomena taking place here: the actual glossa (i.e. the speech, or ‘tongue’ as some would call it) and the interpretation of said glossa (i.e. the “message”).
Let me start by providing a brief summary of the results of the study, and then examine each in greater detail.
Results were rather straightforward from which only one reasonable conclusion may be drawn: glossolalia in and of itself is simply an advanced form of learned, subconscious word-play or “free-vocalization”; anyone can learn to produce it relatively easily. Glossolalia only has specific significance in a cultural or religious context where it is part of that cultural or religious belief system’s practice. In these instances, with the possible exception of Christian glossolalia, it is viewed as a tool rather than a means (more on this further below).
Interpretation which, in most cases, goes hand in hand with the glossolalia, can be viewed as nothing more than a Christian form of what is known as ‘spirit channeling’. Practitioners are simply channeling the Holy Spirit via the tool of glossolalia. As in other traditions that practice channeling, the method/tool used to initiate the process is not necessarily related to the actual ‘message’. Practitioners will argue that channeling and what happens when one is speaking in tongues are two very different things; however, it really boils down to semantics – both describe essentially the same thing.
Let me first discuss glossolalia in greater detail –
In Charismatic/Pentecostal Christianity glossolalia (i.e. “tongues”) can only be regarded as divinely inspired speech and/or its interpretation. Moreover, the fact of how glossolalia is actually produced and what it linguistically comprises doesn’t seem to even come into question. It almost really can’t; “tongues” and its divine origin is an integral core tenant Pentecostal belief. Without “tongues”, Pentecostalism in particular falls rather flat. If the actual mechanics of glossolalia did come into question, there’s really only one rational conclusion: tongues/glossolalia totally excludes any possibility of being divine in nature.
One can certainly perhaps believe him/her self to be divinely inspired to practice glossolalia, but glossolalia in and of itself is neither divine nor miraculous; it’s actually quite mundane and often times its structure in a given speaker or group of speakers from the same congregation is even quite predictable.
It should be noted that most other Christian and non-Christian traditions consider Biblical ‘tongues’ as real language(s). It is generally understood that the word used in the original Greek texts, ‘glossa’, refers to real language, not ecstatic utterance. For the Pentecostal or Charismatic however ‘glossa’, it seems, may refer to both.
Rather than engage in a lengthy discussion and linguistic analysis of glossolalia, let me summarize a few facts to illustrate the point:
Glossolalia will ONLY contain those phonemes (sounds) found in a speaker’s native language or any other language s/he may be familiar with or have been exposed to (either wittingly or not).
Glossolalia is governed by the SAME phonological rules that apply to the speaker’s native language(s)
In other words, if a person knows or has only ever been exposed to say English, their glossolalia will not contain any sounds, or combination of sounds, not found in English. It’s as simple as that. The sounds made by the German ü or ö, or the Welsh ‘ll’, or the Zulu ‘q’ will never occur in their ‘tongue’.
Further, since the phonological rules of a speaker’s glossolalia will always conform to the same phonological rules of (in this example) English, any disallowed syllable structures (e.g. consonant clusters, diphthongs, etc.) in the speaker’s native language (again in this example, English) will also be disallowed in that speaker’s glossolalia.
Syllable structure is also rather unique to some degree. Glossolalia typically exhibits a very open syllable structure; that is, the syllables of a given “word” are typically Consonant (C) Vowel (V), and strings typically consist of a repetition of this structure; so something like CVCVCVCV. With the final segment of the string, there seems to be a choice of using either an open syllable or a closed one (a closed syllable has the structure CVC). This simplified syllable structure lends itself to the impression by many people that ‘tongues’ simply “flow” from the speaker’s mouth.
Note that where I have used ‘C’ (consonant) here, it should be understood that it could represent a single consonant, or any allowed consonant cluster.
Therefore, the end result being that the glossolalia of a German speaker will never quite sound like an English or Spanish speaker. Conversely, neither of their glossolalia will ever sound like a German’s.
What has also been noted and is rather interesting is that American speakers of glossolalia tend to try and make their speech sound more “foreign” or less “American English” sounding, for lack of a better way of putting it. The two most common methods are by trilling the ‘r’ sound (as in many European languages, but unlike American English), and the noticeable absence of the ‘ash’ sound (the ‘a’ in the word “ash”) as this is considered a very English sound (though it certainly does occur in other languages). The trilled ‘r’ has entered the repertoire of sounds (phonemic inventory) of American English – the trilled ‘r’ and typical American ‘rhotic r’ have become variations of one another.
Glossolalia most closely resembles human babbling in structure. The typical syllable structure of “babble” is CVCV (i.e. open syllables no matter what your native language may favor). Glossolalia typically contains syllables which are repeated several times, often with a bit of play on the initial consonant in the syllable; alternating various stop consonants (in English, p/b/, t/d/, k/g) for example, and occasionally a bit of play on the ending of the ‘word’s where the first part of all words in a given string is simply repetition.
https://youtu.be/NZbQBajYnEc : scientific evidence of speeking in tongues
I have scientific evidence that speaking in tongues is real : https://youtu.be/NZbQBajYnEc . Hope you get saved by Jesus and get tasted by the hHoly ghost and speak in tongues..
Well after listening to the findings NO conclusive results were obtained. If I said that I spoke in tongues and I did NOT know if I was speaking a heavenly language or was I actually cursing GOD in this language. Speaking in tongues “TEST” to be proven could the “TEST” be more meaningful and accurate if all the false religions Buddhists, Hindu, Spiritualists ect and have them take the tests ( against the true believer ) and see if false religions are speaking the same holy spirit tongues language or are their tongues different (NOT FROM SATAN CURSING GOD)? Maybe their frontal lobe will be working or not.. The conclusion of the experiments do not show if it is from the Holy Spirit or Satan cursing God?
People that go by feelings and emotions and experiences only find themselves in these situations. They are just making the preachers and book writers rich.
Who is Andrew B. Newberg ? Is he a born again Christian ? Who paid him to do the tests ? How many books has he written ? Do his books bring people to Christ ? Or is he just making a mint out of theses books written ?
Hi just a question HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT SPEAKING IN TONGUES? Have you read what the bible says about tongues yourself?
Would these questions make you reconsider what you are made to believe ?
1) Who demanded signs?
2) What does the bible say about tongues, WHEN DID IT START, WHY WAS THERE TONGUES?
3) HOW many times did tongues appear in the bible like Pentecost, WHY and how many years apart?
4) What was the real reason for tongues?
5) Where Tongues a known languages ?
6) Who could lay hands and transfer the gift ONLY?
7) Can all speak in tongues, WHY?
8) Why do all pagan religions also speak the same tongues as so called Christian tongues?
9) Are tongue speakers more spiritual than none speakers?
10) Does speaking in tongues prove that you are MORE SPIRITUAL?
11) Why was sign gifts already spoken in the past tense in 2 Corinthians?
12) Why does Rev 13: 13-14 and 1 Thes 2:8-12 say that that the ANTICHRIST will deceive the world with signs and wonders, are you being deceived?
13) WHY do Christians seek signs when Math 12:39 says that … an evil and adulterous generation seek after a SIGN?
14) HAS GOD ever commanded or caused Christians to speak in tongues.
15) Is there any BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN 1 Corinthians 14??
16) WAS Pentecost a religious movement, or a religious experience?
17) IS THERE ANYWHERE in the bible that people are told to pray, preach, sing or praise GOD in TONGUES?
18) JOHN 20:22 when JESUS breathed the HOLY SPIRIT onto the Disciples, did they SPAEK IN TONGUES??
19) DOES Acts 4:31, Ephes5:18-31 INCLUDE SPEAKING IN TONGUES??
20) Why are tongues NOT mentioned as SPIRITUAL GIFTS in Romans 6-8??
21) Tongues was for the unbeliever and never encouraged as it did NOT edify the church. WHY do so many want the least gifts?
22) ARE THERE MANY seducing spirits in the world? Are we supposed to “try” the spirits? 1 Timothy 4:1 and 1 John4:1 and Rev 2:2???
23) If you are spiritual should you not Judge all things? 1 Corin2:15
24) WHY did Paul say that tongues would cease to the Corinthian Church? 1 Corinth 13:8
25) WHY would Paul say that the Christians should be like adults and put away childish things like tongues?? 1 Corinth 13:11
26) Bible tongues could NOT be faked, they were real languages? Acts 2:1-11
27) WHERE in the bible does it say ONE can be taught to speak in TONGUES??
28) Why if tongues are IMPORTANT, why are they not required by BISHOPS, DECEANS and ELDERS to speak? 1 Tim 3:1-6: and Titus 1:5.
29) Must ONE GO BY Experience, Feelings OR by FAITH?
30) ARE woman allowed to speak in tongues?
31) Is praying in tongues THE SAME as praying in the SPIRIT?
32) Romans 8:26 Spirit helps us pray with groans that can not be uttered?? Can it be a pray language, where you can NOT UTTER it???
33) Corinth 14:13-17 ..STATES that PRAYING IN TONGUES must also be INTERPRETED? WHY? If, it is a heavenly language where you do not want the SATAN to understand, WHY INTERPRET IT????
34) HOW can praying in tongues be for SELF EDIFICATION when scripture says says that spiritual gifts is for the EDIFICATION OF the CHURCH and not SELF??1 Corinthians 12:7??
35) IF tongues is NOT FOR everyone how can it be FOR SELF-EDIFICATION?? 1 Corith 12:11: 28-30
36) HOW can praying in tongues be PRIVATE pray language if the GIFT of tongues is a sign to unbelievers?? 1 Corinth 14:22
37) WHAT was the reason for tongues??? 3000 saved?? FOR SELF? Acts2:41
38) WAS tongues not a curse?? DEUT 28:49; JER 5:15 :
39) IF Roman Catholics, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormons, Moslems, Buddhists, witch doctors, spiritualists and numerous heathen religions also speak in tongues??? Is it from GOD??
40) DID the sign gifts cease? Why could Paul at the end of his ministry not be able to heal himself, Trophimus, andTimothy 1 Tim 5:23 and 2 Timothy4:20.
41) WHY does 1 Corinth 13:13 say “NOW abides FAITH, HOPE and LOVE…BUT the greatest is LOVE??? Where are the other sign gifts gone??1 Corinth 13: 8-13 and 13: 8.
42) WHEN Jesus comes we will NOT need FAITH and HOPE. WE live by FAITH not by SIGHT are the gift signs sight???? ONLY LOVE will remain.
IF TONGUES TODAY ARE NOT FROM GOD ? WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOUR SALVATION? THE BIBLE SAYS THAT TONGUES WOULD CEASE AND NOT EVERYONE HAD THAT GIFT, ARE THE ONES WITH THAT GIFT MORE SPIRITUAL THAN OTHERS, DO THEY NEED MORE SELF EDIFICATION THAN OTHERS?
VERY DANGEROUS GROUND ONE IS PLAYING WITH IF TONGUES IS NOT FROM GOD ?
See my comments to “Jessica” further below on the Univ. of PA’s study that was done on glossolalia.
I have scientific evidence of speaking in tongues https://youtu.be/NZbQBajYnEc hope you enjoy it and hope you gets saved by jesus an speak in tongues tooo
Below is a short excerpt from some notes on a study I had done of glossolalia a few years back (still really ongoing here and there as time allows).
As a Linguist, I have studied the phenomenon of glossolalia from both a linguistic and cultural point of view. My primary concentration was on the linguistic aspect of this phenomenon.
During the course of my study, it soon became clear that there are really two separate phenomena taking place here: the actual glossa (i.e. the speech, or ‘tongue’ as some would call it) and the interpretation of said glossa (i.e. the “message”).
Let me start by providing a brief summary of the results of the study – in keeping this post as short as possible I do not go into any details of the summary.
Results were rather straightforward from which only one reasonable conclusion may be drawn: glossolalia in and of itself is simply an advanced form of learned, subconscious word-play or “free-vocalization”; anyone can learn to produce it relatively easily. Glossolalia only has specific significance in a cultural or religious context where it is part of that cultural or religious belief system’s practice. In these instances, with the possible exception of Christian glossolalia, it is viewed as a tool rather than a means (more on this further below).
Interpretation which, in most cases, goes hand in hand with the glossolalia, can be viewed as nothing more than a Christian form of what is known as ‘spirit channeling’. Practitioners are simply channeling the Holy Spirit via the tool of glossolalia. As in other traditions that practice channeling, the method/tool used to initiate the process is not necessarily related to the actual ‘message’. Practitioners will argue that channeling and what happens when one is speaking in tongues are two very different things; however, it really boils down to semantics – both describe essentially the same thing.
Simply stated, glossolalia/”speaking in tongues” is nothing more than an advanced form of word play done within the subconscious and its production by anyone may boil down to simply a matter of not being afraid to “play with sounds” – something almost anyone over the age of four or so has forgotten how to do. Messages received/sent are done so by direct spirit channeling and are completely independent of the glossic utterance.
Glossolalia, which is in no way specific to Christianity, is almost always found in use in a religious context and its usage should be regarded as simply a tool by which the practitioner may connect to the divine (or for some, the spirit world), but in and of itself, glossolalia is neither divine nor miraculous.
To sum it up –
For some Christians, glossolalia is a way for that person to become closer to God (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that). They are taught from a young age to believe that the tool (i.e. ‘tongues’) is the actual medium by which one speaks to God or God speaks/reveals to man. From the many examples I have seen however, it is absolutely no different than how other faith traditions that practice glossolalia connect to their deities. Tongues/Glossolalia is to these Christian believers a very real and spiritually meaningful phenomenon, but consisting of emotional release via non-linguistic ‘free vocalizations’ at best – the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech.
Thanks! This is the most reasonable contribution to the topic in the entire thread so far.
Thank you Kavik, I would like to read more of your work. I myself started attending a Pentecost church at the age of 5. My parents were non-believers, I went with my grandmother who always reminded me that I had the power to believe whatever I wanted to believe. I was saved, and spoke in tongues at the age of 15ish. I personally never bought into the bible, I was a logical child, who read the bible, asked a lot of questions, & never felt that my questions were answered. I always felt like something wasn’t right with Christianity. so I started to study other religions around 12. For me when I prayed I prayed and spoke to the universe no particular God. When I was saved, I was praying for God to save me from the painful, neglectful family life I had. I suddenly, had a calmness over me, & felt that I was having a direct conversation with God. Words flowed from my mouth, what I was trying to say & what came out of my mouth did not agree. I was aware of this, but I kept having my conversation with God. As I talked, another lady grabbed my hands and spoke to me in tongues, I knew what she was saying. I still to this day do not buy into Christianity, but after this experience I do believe that there is more to us as humans than we are capable of ever fully understanding. I do believe our brains are functioning in a very different way when we speak in tongues, rather this is truly Gods will our just our own ability to communicate in a way outside of what we currently understand, this is the question I have. Either way, I think it is a beautiful experience & harmless. My children would be terrified to view such a thing, and I strongly feel that tongues is something only adults should experience, because I believe people should be able to find their own belief paths & not be told or pressured to believe one way or another.
Hi very interesting.
How were you saved at 15 ? What did you do to get saved ? How did you know that you were saved ? What does the bible say about speaking in “tongues”, do you know, have you read it for yourself ?
I ask these questions because of what you said happened to you.
You said “I personally never bought into the bible, ….I always felt like something wasn’t right with Christianity. “.
What other religions did you study ? Who were all these other gods that you prayed to ? (Universal gods)
When you said the following when you spoke in (tongues) ….. “Words flowed from my mouth, what I was trying to say & what came out of my mouth did not agree. I was aware of this, but I kept having my conversation with God.”
Your conversation with god WAS NOT the things that came out of your mouth. Did better things come out of your or worse things ?
“As I talked, another lady grabbed my hands and spoke to me in tongues, I knew what she was saying.”
How did you know that the lady was “speaking in tongues” if you understood it?
When I speak to people of differently languages that I know I understand them directly. They are not speaking in other tongues. I understand them without hearing (unknown tongues) and then understanding it. Did you hear other tongues AND then you understood it OR as she spoke you understood it?
“I still to this day do not buy into Christianity, but after this experience I do believe that there is more to us as humans than we are capable of ever fully understanding”
SO you were saved but to this day you do not buy into christianity ? Christianity is not about experiences, feelings and emotions it about faith in Jesus Christ and a personal relationship with Jesus.
“I do believe our brains are functioning in a very different way when we speak in tongues, rather this is truly Gods will our just our own ability to communicate in a way outside of what we currently understand, this is the question I have.
Good question you said you do not buy into Christianity and you speak in tongues IF the tongues you speak are not from God WHO are they from? Other people from false religions also speak in “tongues”. Are these tongues from God or Satan or just a learnt behaviour ?
“Either way, I think it is a beautiful experience & harmless.”
Well harmless is very questionable ? ? Who is giving you these tongues?
” My children would be terrified to view such a thing, and I strongly feel that tongues is something only adults should experience, because I believe people should be able to find their own belief paths & not be told or pressured to believe one way or another.”
If God is a loving pure and true God why would you feel that your children would be terrified ( what was so terrifying to you that you think that your children should not see such things ?
God loves us as his own children.
Sorry about all the questions but you need to understand what the bible says about what you “hear people say or do ” read about it yourself DO NOT believe anything or every thing you see or hear. The bible says there is great deception in the last days.
Frankly, Mario, your comments are rude. I stated that I studied & read the Bible, as well as the Koran, and many other religious doctrine. I came to the conclusion that speaking in tongues is a form of meditation, or turning on of an area of our brain that we do not normally use. As for understanding and knowing the lady was speaking in tongues; she spoke, I heard a “foreign” language and understood what she said. I am not wasting my time with the rest of your questions.
Thank you for you comment. I am sorry if you thought I was rude. I apologise. But no matter what you believe about tongues. As you say “I came to the conclusion that speaking in tongues is a form of meditation, or turning on of an area of our brain that we do not normally use.”
Tests in Speaking in unknown tongues was. The person that did the tests was he a christian ? How many books has he written ? How much money is he making out a people ? Were the same tests also done with other false religions which also speak in tongues ” Mormons, some devil-possessed spiritists, heathen witch doctors in Africa and Asia. Even before Jesus time many heathen religions talked in tongues. It is not of itself necessarily of God.
Did the tests show the same results ? Frontal lobe
turning on of an area of our brain that we do not normally use. The Same results for believers and unbelievers ?
I am sorry but this is a serious matter concerning life or death . We are talking about our salvation and eternal life.
You need not answer but Are we playing with fire? Should we not study the subject for ourselves ?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html?_r=0
HERE YOU GO. RIDDLE ME THAT.
A very strong argument for tongues as being divine in nature frequently referred to by proponents is a study done by the University of Pennsylvania on the phenomenon of glossolalia. This is the source study referenced in the article you link to.
In a nutshell, the study determined via SPECT imaging that when a person exhibits glossolalia, the language producing areas of the brain are not really engaged; i.e. ‘tongues’ do not originate in the speech center of the brain. These results have been used to support its supposed divine origins or that a person is not in control of what s/he is saying.
After reading the study, I would argue the results are exactly as what one would expect; it stands to reason the brain’s language producing center is not really being engaged simply because glossolalia is not language. It’s just free vocalization –playing with sounds which do not require the language producing centers in the brain to be overly engaged.
The results, I believe, are somewhat inconclusive in that they can be skewed to equally support either argument.
The title of your article should be “Speaking in Tongues – The real story – From Wrong Perspective. You cannot write a correct article about speaking in tongues except from biblical perspective. Your statement that says: “I should know; I used to be a practitioner myself at one time and truly did believe in the reality of it, but realize now that I was motivated by my desire to blend in and was only fooling myself”.
That really says it all of your article. You are writing about something you don’t know about but you think you have knowledge of. I am reminded about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. These 2 play along to fit into the group just as your “I was motivated by my desire to blend in and was only fooling myself”
These people were only fooling themselves too. To write effectively about the Spiritual things, you have to go to the BIBLE!
Hi Matthew, What convinces you that the Bible is the only reliable source that you can use and that anything and everything else can be dismissed?
And what convinces you that Bible is not a reliable source. Just because you have not experienced anything , doubted and then gave up does not mean that its not reliable. First of all , speaking in tongues concept came from acts in the Bible. The disciples who were ones cowards got filled with the Holy Spirit and then experienced this new concept. They did not invent it , there was no concept of Pentecostalism in Jewish tradition . they even gave their lives for this which is even confirmed by secular sources so why did they sacrifice themselves for something if they knew it was a lie or why someone would die for a made up story. Consider this example let’s say you want to climb a mountain and you don’t know that you can ever climb it . you tried 10 times , you failed and then you believed that its fake and concluded you can never climb this mountain ,then would you be able to climb the mountain. Instead you will come up with excuses that you can’t climb it but if you believe that you can do it , then may be you will climb it in the 30th or 40th attempt. You never experienced because you doubted.
There are several reasons to doubt the veracity of the Bible, specifically the NT. Paul lies several times, such as his various accounts about his experiences on the way to Damascus. He also lies to the Galatians (I believe that’s the one) by telling them that James only told them to remember the orphans and the widows. When, in fact, James commanded a strict prohibition of eating anything offered to idols or food with the blood and participating in sexual immorality (Acts 15).
Then, there is the issue of Paul’s status as an Apostle. He boldly proclaims that he is one of the “big A” group, but apart from Luke there is no mention of anyone giving him that title, including the person in his vision of the road. Combine that with his version of what happened after the resurrection (1 Cor. 15), and you can see that he was either uninformed or willfully lying to cover his own hide. Aside from that, after denouncing circumcision as being of no good purpose (even saying it would take someone from the faith) he personally circumcised Timothy according to Luke’s account (or whoever wrote the Acts of the Apostles).
In Revelation (chapters 2-3) the supposed Jesus, speaking to whoever wrote the apocalyptic work, praised the Ephesians for not believing false apostles and those who taught that it was A-OK to eat meat offered to idols. The only praise given to Paul in the NT is via 2 Peter, but it was not written by Peter—something widely known by scholars. The epistle attributed to James (the brother of Jesus) reads like a point-by-point rebuke of Paul’s teachings. Paul did indicate that his message was “my gospel,” and that anyone else should be ignored.
Yet, people just blindly follow Paul in his delusions of grandeur because what he says makes them feel good. Reading the Bible critically offers anyone an opportunity to see just how deceitful Paul was, and that he was not a 13th Apostle—Matthias replaced Judas. Pauline Christianity is aptly named, because the writings of Paul are esteemed higher and more significant that the purported words of the guy everyone claims to worship.
Yeah well a lot of great openings that science can’t explain but the bible can explain will show up. Your prayers are answered better. I do this 1 hour everyday. I did tongues for one month i can’t go into detail what happened but it was and still is the most amazing experiences ever. Please don’t call me crazy, but tongues opens doors for healing. That’s why.
Your proof of healings are they documented with doctors details and X-rays before and after the healing? If so could we have the records.
Please feel free to contact the people on this link. http://www.trf.org.au/healing.asp. The first guy on the list was healed of blindness. He lives in Perth. Go to the Perth contact number. I hope that is not too hard for you because no I don’t hold people’s personal medical documents duh! But I offered you contact phone numbers for you atheist geniuses to follow up.
Hi Marchello
Why you so quick to call people atheist ? Did atheists in the bible not do miraculous miracles ? DID YOU KNOW today there are atheists also healing people and performing miracles ?
If I had written a whole lot of miracles that happened to people, would you believe me ? If I told you that a family member could not have babies but after 17 years the wife conceived ?
I quote “Phil sought the Lord for the infilling of the Holy Spirit. He recalls this moment. “I opened my mouth and this language poured out and I didn’t want to stop; it was as if all the rottenness of my past life was being drained from me.” INFILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS AT SALVATION? WAS PHIL NOT SAVED ?
WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT SPEAKING IN TONGUES HEALS PEOPLE ? ROMANS 8:26 “…..THE SPIRIT ITSELF MAKES INTERCESSION FOR US WITH GROANINGS THAT CAN NOT BE UTTERED”
QUESTION : HOW COME PEOPLE ARE UTTERING THING THAT CAN NOT BE UTTERED? i THOUGHT TONGUES WAS TO FULFILL PROPHECY AND FOR THE UNBELIEVERS NOT BELIEVERS ?
Hello again Mario
It’s good to see you have whittled down your questions from over 40 down to 11. lol
As I said before it’s clear you already have YOUR answers formulated. Perhaps you are an Adventist? Maybe a Cessationist?
But to answer your last two questions.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that tongues are used for healing. (not sure where you got that from).
And yes ‘the gift of languages’ is still a sign for unbelievers. And shock horror! The Apostle Paul lists OTHER uses for this great gift in 1 Corinthians 14, which you should be well versed in by now. lol
Gregory of Nazianzus (c. 329–390): “They spoke with foreign tongues, and not those of their native land; and the wonder was great, a language spoken by those who had not learned it. And the sign is to them that believe not, and not to them that believe, that it may be an accusation of the unbelievers, as it is written, ‘“With other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people, and not even so will they listen to Me” says the Lord’” (The Oration on Pentecost, 15–17).
… AND NOT EVEN THEN (WITH THE GIFT OF LANGUAGES) WILL UNBELIEVERS LISTEN AND BELIEVE!
The day of Pentecost had a number of amazing miracles take place not just speaking in foreign languages. And when/if you understand its full implications you will rejoice in the great G-d who has engineered this planet, the words of the prophets, the coming of Christ, His gospel message of salvation and the eternities to come.
There are actually. They scanned brain images during normal prayer and the frontal part that enables us to form our language is high in activity when they scanned images of the same man praying in tongues the activity of that area was significantly lower . It leads one to believe it’s confirming that the thoughts and language are NOT coming from our own minds but from the spirit ! There’s that link for ya http://youtu.be/NZbQBajYnEc
Dude me, my brother and my best friend went to summer camp “camp pearl wheat in Texas,sponsored by a local non specific Christian church.
One evening the camp assembled with candles out in a clearung the woods. After hours of repetitive prayers and frenzied singing and hands raised, an uncontrollable sort of gobblygook incantations resonated from all of us.
It felt like going down a steep hill on a bike
The exponential speed of the sounds and the loss of the ability to control was overwhelming.
And upon retiring later to our beds we were told we had recieved the holy ghost and we’re speaking in tongues. I believe that we are all mas hypnotized in some sort of freaky epiglottiial incidence.
It squeegeed my 3rd eye for real.
Repetitive chanting, frenzied singing, hands in the air… oh my goodness maybe you were at a rock concert you poor thing! I suppose everyone chooses which ‘god’ they will worship. The big difference at the Christian event I suppose would be no drugs, booze, no arguments, fighting, bashing, stabbings, glassing, vomiting, no overdosing, no deaths, no pressure for sex, drunk sex, rape, gang rape (unwanted pregnancy/abortions/ unwanted-unloved kids) sexually transmitted diseases, nudity, passing out, pissing on themselves, psychotic episodes, etc, etc which I take from your post would be totally acceptable.
Marchello,
Your response to Jess Issa’s comment was weird enough for me to determine I will decline your request to communicate in private.
Sharon Browning
I was simply saying that the Christian lifestyle or Christian events are rarely as outrageous or ‘freaky’ compared to those of the secular world. Maybe it dripped with too much sarcasm. If it was too weird for you, that’s fine.
Marchello,
How typical it is for Christians to think their lifestyles and associated activities are superior to the secular world. Demonizing the term: secular, is a popular method used by leadership to create a sense of sanctification, which means to be set apart for a special purpose. The bible is full of verses that tempt the believer to judge, while contradicting itself, then schooling believers not to judge others. The evangelicals and comparitively their Muslim extremist counterparts, are the most avid users of this delusional faith based nativism. It’s sold as true reality to recruit followers.
I know you’ve had a transformative experience. But, all you have is faith and personally perceived evidence you can’t really prove to someone who would judge you. You can be a better boy now, but there are millions of non-believers who demonstrate good values and behavior without needing transformative rescue from BibleGod/Jesus.
Using faith based interpretations of biblical doctrine against others like: Jesus is the only way to the Father, to be saved, to access eternal life, in order to devalue the good an unbeliever strives for is poop.
Believers actually have nothing but their faith, there is no decent evidence. Confidence is not evidence.
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” That’s code for- no evidence.
When it comes to a standard of evidence that Jesus had in mind, it went like this:
John 14: 11-14
“11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”
Now that would make some nice evidence of believers would perform to the standard Jesus set. History would be totally different after a couple thousand years of Jesus doing what He said He would do.
Secular is neither evil or wrong.
Faith is no guarantee for truth.
Sharon Browning
Sharon, you do not share the Christian faith so for you the secular world and its ethics and lifestyles are acceptable. That is your opinion. Maybe read a newspaper sometime.
But even without faith in the supernatural, Christian ethics and lifestyles are FAR SUPERIOR (did you get the emphasis) than ALL OTHER LIFESTYLES!
Read the following and tell me I’m wrong (although they’re not my words).
Romans 12
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.
17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Our society would be 1000 percent better if people could just follow these principles. And there are many similar Bible passages that encourage the human to be moral, honest and loving. You only need to look at the social problems of Western society to see that humans need this gospel. As my first post noted: drugs, booze, violence, STD’s, unwanted pregnancy, are rife in the teenage world and do you really DARE tell me the secular world’s ethics are okay?
Sharon, a few kids getting together in the bush (I’m an Aussie) singing and praying in tongues and being encouraged to follow these ethics is hardly an evil thing.
But guess what Sharon? At the exact hour that the Holy Ghost was poured upon the believers and they spoke in tongues, the crowd gathered and some people INSTANTLY STARTED MOCKING IT saying they were drunk! So your disbelief and disparaging comments are nothing new.
JUDE 18 …“In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.”
Marchello, I don’t need preaching to.
I need BibleGod to become a real God according to His own Word’s promises. I need BibleJesus to do what He promised.
The BibleDeities need to communicate with and lift believers in real-time. Our lives are too stinking short for Their antics.
I’m done, with nurturing a faith based delusion, and done with unfriendly user manuals, and done with idiosyncratic religulous sects.
I am no longer expecting Them to do anything, because They never do.
Lol, I predict: you will think something is wrong with me, or something happened to cause me to lose faith. Heheheh
Nothing is ever BibleGod’s fault.
Sharon I find YOU hard to believe! lol Can you honestly say that in your church hopping you didn’t meet ONE person who had a verifiable miracle/healing, or had an irrefutable, naturally impossible answer to prayer? We would easily have 10 people in our Pentecostal fellowship who could supply MEDICAL PROOF that they were miraculously healed in the name of Bible Jesus. I can give you their phone numbers if you think I’m full of it! Come on you keyboard warrior… I dare you!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that the purpose of speaking in tongues at Pentecost was to witness to foreigners in their on tongue. Acts 2:1-6
I’m someone who has spoken in Tongues and interpreted 18 years and been excommunicated for divorce in the Open Brethren Church….Tongues is Heaven’s Morse Code..if it’s for you you”ll understand it if its not for you , you wont..or its Demonic. If you think you should speak in Tongues than you should continue to think that way. Does a person who speaks in Tongues have more rights in Heaven than someone doesn’t ? No……Speaking in Tongues means you have become a Spiritual Toddler….that’s it. And when you speak in Tongues you have Revelation , the term Being saved is actually a lie….There’s no professing a faith in Jesus that makes you saved or not saved..Christians haven’t talked to me in 8 years! and I’m not a proclaiming Christian any more……But I have glorious encounters with the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:6 Jeremiah 31 :34 given by the Holy Spirit. hope that helps
I have always been able to speak in a sort of language which doesn’t have a meaning- which I guess is glossolalia. I don’t see it as a spiritual thing, more a party trick. It is a very different thing to speaking in a real language, as I feel like I have temporarily and voluntarily “disconnected” the part of my speech process responsible for adding meaning. It is quite fun to do.
Interesting blog. I have heard people speak in tongues, but never believed it being a true or understandable language. Although speaking in tongues may have psychological power, a placebo of sorts as people seem to be comforted in both speaking it and afterwords, it’s nothing more than a creative way to explain or at least deal with whatever issues the believer is experiencing. Many people who suddenly are able to speak in tongues seem to be looking for answers, and I don’t think this is a coincidence. They see this as truly spiritual. I see it as a form of catharsis as the mind is concentrating on……nothing. With the exception of actually speaking, i.e. making unintelligible sounds, the mind is basically empty of thought, of stress and issues one may be dealing with. Some say this is a spiritual event, however, meditation can have the same comforting and spiritual result. The mind is a very complex organ and many experts believe they know only about 10 percent of what the brain is capable of. Many people dealing with severe stress or simply looking for attention can experience illness when there is no medical reason for the illness, including what is known as a hysterical pregnancy. Queen bloody Mary Tudor comes to mind, something she experienced twice.
A child with no siblings may find an invisible friend to play with and some may have an unrealistic view of their body as is seen in anorexia. Some children experience what is known as synesthesia, a rare neurological disorder where one can taste colors or literally feel music and some can have a photographic memory, the ability to remember everything like a passage in a book they read once, including page number and paragraph.
Before ascribing something to the spiritual, look to more mundane explanations.Spiritual is a belief, not fact.
Your Idea that spirituality is a belief is also not a fact. To us, spirituality is a fact, because it is a fact. There is much, much more evidence in support of spirituality as fact than the Idea that it is a belief. Yes, It is not a coincidence that people speak in tongues when they are troubled, clearly because God wishes to help them through the hard times, your argument doesn’t make sense either, about all these references to things such as Anorexia or pregnancy symptoms, or imaginary friends or all theset things, they miss the point, you miss the point.
I would like to know if you are still a Christian or have you completely abandoned your religion?
Hhi all
Just a question to all that speak in tongues What does the bible about tongues? If you can answer these questions that come to mind then you will realise that you know very little about the subject. Here we go how many times did tongues appear in the bible. What was the real reason for tongues? Who could lay hands and tranfer the gift? Can all speak in tongues? Why do all pagan religions also speak the same tongues as so called christian tongues? Are tongue speakers more spiritual than none speakers? Does speaking in tongues prove that you are spirit filled? If anyone can answer these questions, please let us know the answers so that the uninformedmy realise what they are allowing to enter their bodies, is it thje Real Holy Spirit or an evil spirit. If its an evil spirit then instead of praising God you are in actual fact cussing God. So as you read the bible for the answers, please do not do tjings that you do not understandayou could be on dangerous ground. All your esponses welcomed. God bless
Hi Mario, here is some info on the topic.
1 Corinthians 14 actually answers a lot of your questions.
1 Corinthians 14 King James Version (KJV)
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. (Spiritual gifts were common in the early church. The Roman empire version of Christianity no doubt quashed such things.)
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
This verse really throws a spanner into the wheels of the anti-tongues lobby…. “NO MAN (including scientists/linguists) UNDERSTANDS HIM (the person who speaks in tongues).
In my experience, I was involved with drugs, alcohol, smoking and many bad attitudes before I became a Christian – and I knew I had the Holy Spirit when I spoke in tongues. Since then I have been free of that negative, hate filled lifestyle. I am more loving and less self-centered. More patient, gentle, humble, kind. This is not the work of an evil spirit.
I have googled some of my words when I speak in tongues to see what ‘the Spirit’ is mysteriously saying. To my ongoing shock these words always seem to be URDU or HINDI which are languages related to ARABIC. In one example I looked up “bella haya”… turns out it means “beautiful life”…. well that is what God has given me.
So I am convinced that the language of tongues can be earthly or angelic (not of this earth). And that it is mostly praising God and rejoicing.
I wasn’t raised a Christian and it’s certainly not a popular lifestyle in Australia but for me it is the best life. How I have come to be speaking URDU words is a miracle!
I also believe ANY Christian can lose faith. Unbelief is the default setting of the human.
“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” Romans 11:32
Hi Marchello
Firstly I am really happy that your life has changed for the better.
However you did not answer some of my questions? WHY?? Should you not KNOW the answers so that one can Discern the spirits.
I would love to have the answers to all the question, as this would bring a lot of clarity to Christians today for them to see if they are on the correct path??
Would love to hear from all
CAN ANY ONE HELP ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS
1) Who demanded signs?
2) What does the bible say about tongues, WHEN DID IT START, WHY WAS THERE TONGUES?
3) HOW how many times did tongues appear in the bible like Pentecost, WHY and how many years apart?
4) What was the real reason for tongues?
5) Where Tongues a known languages ?
6) Who could lay hands and transfer the gift ONLY?
7) Can all speak in tongues, WHY?
8) Why do all pagan religions also speak the same tongues as so called Christian tongues?
9) Are tongue speakers more spiritual than none speakers?
10) Does speaking in tongues prove that you are MORE SPIRITUAL?
11) Why was sign gifts already spoken in the past tense in 2 Corinthians?
12) Why does Rev 13: 13-14 and 1 Thes 2:8-12 say that that the ANTICHRIST will deceive the world with signs and wonders, are you being deceived?
13) WHY do Christians seek signs when Math 12:39 says that … an evil and adulterous generation seek after a SIGN?
14) HAS GOD ever commanded or caused Christians to speak in tongues.
15) Is there any BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN 1 Corinthians 14??
16) WAS Pentecost a religious movement, or a religious experience?
17) IS THERE ANYWHERE in the bible that people are told to pray, preach, sing or praise GOD in TONGUES?
18) JOHN 20:22 when JESUS breathed the HOLY SPIRIT onto the Desciples, did they SPAEK IN TONGUES??
19) DOES Acts 4:31, Ephes5:18-31 INCLUDE SPEAKING IN TONGUES??
20) Why are tongues NOT mentioned as SPIRITUAL GIFTS in Romans 6-8??
21) Tongues was for the unbeliever and never encouraged as it did NOT edify the church. WHY do so many want the least gifts?
22) ARE THERE MANY seducing spirits in the world? Are we supposed to “try”the spirits? 1 Timothy 4:1 and 1 John4:1 and Rev 2:2???
23) If you are spiritual should you not Judge all things? 1 Corin2:15
24) WHY did Paul say that tongues would cease to the Corintian Church? 1 Corinth 13:8
25) WHY would Paul say that the Christians should be like aldults and put away childish things like tongues?? 1 Corinth 13:11
26) Bible tongues could NOT be faked, they were real languages? Acts 2:1-11
27) WHERE in the bible does it say ONE can be taught to speak in TONGUES??
28) Why if tongues are IMPORTANT, why are they not required by BISHOPS, DECEANS and ELDERS to speak? 1 Tim 3:1-6: and Titus 1:5.
29) Must ONE GO BY Experience, Feelings OR by BY FAITH?
30) ARE woman allowed to speak in tongues?
31) Is praying in tongues THE SAME as praying in the SPIRIT?
32) Romans 8:26 Spirit helps us pray with groans that can not be uttered?? Can it be a pray language, where you can NOT UTTER it???
33) Corinth 14:13-17 ..STATES that PRAYING IN TONGUES must also be INTERPRETED? WHY? If, it is a heavenly language where you do not wanty the SATAN to understand, WHY INTERPRET IT????
34) HOW can praying in tongues be for SELF EDIFICATION when scripture says says that spiritual gifts is for the EDIFICATION OF the CHURCH and not SELF??1 Corinthians 12:7??
35) IF tongues is NOT FOR everyone how can it be FOR SELF-EDIFICATION?? 1 Corith 12:11: 28-30
36) HOW can praying in tongues be PRIVATE pray language if the GIFT of tongues is a sign to unbelievers?? 1 Corinth 14:22
37) WHAT was the reason for tongues??? 3000 saved?? FOR SELF? Acts2:41
38) WAS tongues not a curse?? DEUT 28:49; JER 5:15 :
39) IF Roman Catholics, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormons, Moslems, Buddhists, witch doctors, spiritualists and numerous heathen religions also speak in tongues??? Is it from GOD??
40) DID the sign gifts cease? Why could Paul at the end of his ministry not be able to heal himself, Trophimus, Timothy 1 Tim 5:23 and 2 Timothy4:20.
41) WHY does 1 Corinth 13:13 say “NOW abides FAITH, HOPE and LOVE…BUT the greatest is LOVE??? Where are the other sign gifts gone??1 Corinth 13: 8-13 and 13: 8.
42) WHEN Jesus comes we will NOT need FAITH and HOPE. WE live by FAITH not by SIGHT are the gift signs sight???? ONLY LOVE will remain.
If anyone can answer these questions, please let us know the answers so that the uninformed my realize what they are allowing to enter their bodies, is it the Real Holy Spirit or an evil spirit.
If its an evil spirit then instead of praising God you COULD in actual fact cursing God.
So as you read the bible for the answers, please do not do things that you do not understand as you could be on dangerous ground??
Would love for anyone to help answer the question/comments
Mario rather than seeking answers from me or other people, why don’t you ask God about this Holy Spirit and its miraculous gifts? Why? I don’t believe you’re honestly seeking the TRUTH. You’ve made your mind up about spiritual gifts and your 42 questions confirm that. Dozens of people have provided answers to most of your questions already.
Hi Marchell
Thanks for answering. Firstly I had all the answers to the questions before I sent to you. Todays generation people are Lazy, they find it easier to believe what they are told than search the bible themselves.I sent the questions so anyone reading them might go themselves to see if they will find the answers. and not get caught up with different philosophies, they must research what the bible says. Not believe every doctrine out there and there are many. So after answering all the questions are you still convinced that tongues is for today?? If you need any of the answers I will let you have them.
Paul mentioned the sign gifts were for a time and would end. 1 Corinth 13:8. Lets take Pauls ministry as an example. Paul could heal, his showdown healed, hanky chiefs healed and towards the end of his ministry we see that the gifts had started cease. Paul could now not heal Timothy he resorted to home remedies, could not heal Trophimus as he had to leave him sick at Ephesus. ( 1 Tim 5:23 and 2 Tim 4:20 ). WERE THE SIGN GIFTS FADING, CEASING AND PASS AWAY???
No mention of tongues from around 70 AD. WHEN DID IT ALL START AGAIN? AROUND 1 JANUARY 1901 AT A NIGHT SERVICE IN TOPEKA, KANSAS, A WORMAN NAMED AGNES OZMAN babbled gibberish after Charles Parham laid hands on her and then spread 1906 to Azusa Street. This is were it all began.
Did the church miss out on tongues all those years, were they not needed then. Why tongues more important today than other gifts? they are easier to counterfeit. Healings, handling of poison and snakes are much harder to counterfeit. WHY SEEK THE LEAST OF THE GIFTS????
Why is tongues NOT the FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT ? IF tongues is to EDIFY THE SPEAKER why does Paul say in 1 Corinth 14:14 we NEED UNDERSTANDING FOR EDIFICATION???
Now seriously if todays tongues are not from the Spirit of God, where are they coming from?? other spirits ??? THERE IS NO SITTING ON THE FENCE WE ARE EITHER HEARING FROM GOD OR SATAN ( THE COUNTERFEITOR).
Read the scriptures ask the Holy Spirit to lead us into all TRUTH. SATAN heals, speaks in tongues and does miracles today.
Why not look at Mark16:17 If you speak in new tongues then you can also cast out devils, can pick up serpents with their hands, drink deadly poison will not harm them, LAY HANDS on the SICK and they SHALL RECOVER. Not like today only recover if my faith is strong or their faith is weak, or in time you might get better. Can you do all theses things??
Romans 8: 26 … the spirit itself makes intercession for us with GROANINGS with can “NOT BE UTTERED” if THE SPIRITS GROANINGS can “NOT BE UTTERED”.
HOW COME YOU ARE WHY ARE ÜTTERING THEM??
NOT BEING HASH, but the bible says NOT everyone calling me Lord Lord and believing in error will be saved. We are all precious to God and we should know what we are doing if not one could be lead astray?
Serious side question Mario,
You write …
// Now seriously if todays tongues are not from the Spirit of God, where are they coming from?? other spirits ??? THERE IS NO SITTING ON THE FENCE WE ARE EITHER HEARING FROM GOD OR SATAN ( THE COUNTERFEITOR).//
Why would those be the only two options you would consider? Or to put that another way, why would you dismiss the far more reasonable explanation that there is nothing supernatural going on here at all, and that normal human psychological observations explain what is happening?
You also appear to be having a few issues with your caps-lock key, I’d recommend having it looked at.
Dave
Hi Dave
Sorry about the capital letters on previous post. Sorry I took so long to reply.
I stressed the point as I did with the questioned that I asked. If a Christian does not know what the bible says about speaking in tongues. Should they experiment and be taught how to speak in tongues? can one be taught? I have asked a few tongue speaking Christians some of these questions but sadly they do not even know what speaking in tongues is all about. When asked why they want to speak in tongues, they do not know what to say. Some say it is the Spirit baptism, others say evidence of being born again.
Majority of them do not know, why there was tongues, why it happened, how many times it happened, how many years apart from each other did it happen again??
Sorry but just a word of caution. Before anyone just accepts what a preacher or what other people are doing in the Name of God, they must read and study the word themselves and read up on the subject matter, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to know the TRUTH.
Just concerned on how the so called people of God are manipulating the poor souls.
Have you the answers for the questions I submitted? If, so could anyone out there share the answers?
I’m interested in your list of science based sources regarding studies of speaking in tongues (SIT) if you have it handy.
I’ve been SIT, for 37 years. My tongue is not babbling, nor is any of it understandable. My tongue resembles known languages and varies. I’m naturally good at imitating accents so I’m aware this could affect what my possible “gibberish” sounds like. I’m a skeptic, so I needed to study the scripture regarding SIT before I made the effort to manifest it.
The teaching ministry associated to my beginning effort was, The Way Biblical Research and Teaching and Fellowship ministry. It was often labeled a cult and some families employed kidnapping their wayward loved ones using deprogrammers to save their brainwashed family members.
For me, the moment of receiving /bringing it into manifestation was like jumping off a cliff, as I imagined landing in Gods hands. It didn’t just come over me outside of my will, it was a moment of decision. I breathed in and began speaking as I breathed out. The tongues began. I felt nothing but surprised wonder that it was happening. It was interesting to me that I didn’t feel something more like bliss.
I can start and stop my tongues when speaking out loud, and I can do it in my head without moving my mouth. I can even think other thoughts while it’s “running”. Heheh, I have awakened from sleep to find I’m SIT. When this happened, I stayed awake continuing to SIT, thinking I was aiding prayer for “something” needed, yet wholly unknown/ beyond understanding.
I would be delighted to offer my sampling to someone’s study.
To complicate things, I’m no longer a practicing Christian. But I can still SIT. I have so much to say on the matter. But I don’t want to address all the doctrine point by point. Mainly, because I’m done defending anything BibleGod-like. These days I’m a BibleGod critic. Meaning, I find BibleGod a most tedious and ineffective communicator to us. BibleJesus is equally as bad at communicating as Dad. And, I just don’t see the progress promised to believers across the historical timeline. I don’t see BibleGod/BibleJesus doing anything in real time. The documents they left as a record, and as the playbook are not user friendly. Between the contradictory cryptic documents, lack of guidance from the deities, and lack of results in the body of believers I began a reevaluation of what I believed about 10 years ago. I don’t know what I am exactly now…but I know I’m not a pleased believer.
Tongues is only part of an equipment package of 9 manifestations that believers are endowed with when they are “born again”. The worship manifestations are Tongues, interpretation and prophecy. In all the charismatic meetings I’ve ever been in, which are many and not just from one sect, I have never seen these manifestations operated in a way that made me believe anyone was mature in the practice. I’ve taken their charismatic classes to see if there was any foundation for unity. There isn’t. I don’t think anyone knows what they’re doing.
The quality of supernatural messaging from interpretation and prophecy heard during these rituals has not yielded much substance in terms that would be considered effective communication to the body present at that time or for the body of believers at large.
In my private use of tongues as an additive to prayer, it was my expectation that doing it was “perfect prayer”. A lot of good that does if the user can’t understand it…, and no results can be observed worth documenting.
It is my opinion BibleGod and Bible Jesus if actual supreme beings as described could have penetrated our thick hides with much better messaging yielding significantly better results to us short lived creatures.
Wow wow wow I am so sorry Im sure I sound like an idiot for sure and you have my apologies. After reading my post I feel like an idiot. I mis wrote it and I completely meant that they preceded the people coming from Europe by thousands of years, and I do have evidence for this. As Oxford has found remains of vikings dating 4000 years plus on the east coast of America. In my opinion this goes on to support the idea that life was wiped clean multiple times, which I do believe. Support of this is also found with examples like the Egyptian pyramids. People ask how it was possible? Artifacts show electrical like contraptions. The fact that life was destroyed and knowledge destroyed along with it would support this fact.
I used to think similarly about the difficulty between the existence of disbelief and the omnipotence/ eternal love of God. (IE either God cannot save all or God doesn’t want to save all, either way He loses Diety)
But then I adopted the belief that humans get exactly what they wanted in the end (Following much of C.S. Lewis’ theorizing) and in light of the idea that people who wanted God get Him and those who didn’t don’t, the brief doesn’t face the same issue.
Actually, in the idea that we solidify ourselves with every choice we make until we make no more choices, perhaps the Catholics are right about “Purgatory” this idea too doesn’t find the flaw of the dilemma above.
It also may be because we as humans demand to get information in a certain (maybe impossible) way. We demand things be provable except the tools that prove things (our senses/ reality/ history)
All that said, I still find the Christian God 95% agreeable and in the places I do not, I’m willing to trust something beyond my reasoning (after all, if I must agree on everything ((which I would with perfect knowledge)) who is than God? God or I?)
Hi Sharon, I would like to share some thoughts with you in a private forum if you are interested.
I would be curious to know what your particular language sounds like – you say it resembles known languages and varies. Varies how? Would it be possible for you to provide a written sample? What languages, other than English do you know or have been exposed to?
I’m a trained Linguist and have studied the phenomenon of glossolalia (a/k/a to some as SIT) and am always curious to get a few ‘first hand’ samples. If you are naturally good at imitating accents, this would affect how you produce your glossolalia, hence the question on what other languages you might be familiar with.
Your comment is judging a single subsection of my argument, what exactly is your argument.
I cannot really see an “argument” here. While I have a high opinion of John G Lake, I regard your mentions of “Vikings that precede native Americans by thousands of years”, Atlantis, and the “big bang in the Genesis” as pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo. Vikings date around 1000 AD, so they cannot precede anyone by “thousands of years”. I encourage you to dig deeper.
Except you’re wrong about the vikings, thereally was vI king remnants in yhe north America’s that precede the native americans
Would you care to give some /evidence/ to support your statement, even more so as it contradicts what we know and have known for centuries? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikings (Assuming you have some fancy for critical thinking, as you are posting on this page.)
When talking about tongues, it is important to understand it is a gift, that some believers receive this gift in particular, while others may receive the gift of pure faith no matter the circumstances. Others receive the gift of visions and so on. Speaking in tongues is not the ultimate of being a Christian. Also, for everyone in this thread, science has yet to prove anything against God. Infact, science has only proven God to exist even more! Speaking in tongues, for example, involves chemical changes in the body, which God is known to be able to do!
Kenneth Hagin, a rebound preacher was diagnosed of an incurable blood disease, yet after having a vision and understanding what he must do, when he awoke all signs of sickness were gone. He was practically dead, full of sickness, yet the pain is what brought him closers to God. People on this thread ask why God allows suffering. Perhaps He allows it because it is during these times that he is able to become closer with us. John G Lake, also a rebound preacher in the twentieth century, ran healing ministries, where people dying of disease and sickness were instantly cured by his preachings. Also facts from the Bible are constantly being verified.
The book of Genesis sounds a lot like the big bang, how would someone 2000 years ago understand a topic unless he is truly of God?
The Bible explains how entire civilizations were wiped out, Viking remnants have been found in North America that would precede native Americans by thousands of years! Atlantis, another city that was wiped out, and science is just now beginning to catch up!
All science has done and will continue to do is attempt to explain God’said creation. Spirituality and science can coexist, it’s unfortunate for those who believe otherwise.
Your statement is like fruit salad with pickles. ;-) You are mixing a lot of pseudo science into your beliefs. Wrt. whether the book of Genesis promotes the big bang or something else, find here an illustration of the world model that fits closely to the texts of Genesis (creation, flood): http://www.gnadenquelle.de/images/Erde_6.jpg
It amazes me how we, as humans, think we are so intelligent… It is to our detriment…God is not some mere fairy tale that we can explain, intellectualize or comprehend with our brains. His ways are beyond our ways, His thoughts are beyond our thoughts…to the individual who wrote this blog, you were never gifted with the ability to speak in tongues. If you were, this post would not exist. As someone who prays in a heavenly tongue, its not something that i can practice or make up….i haven’t been brainwashed. In moments of prayer, God has allowed me to interpret the language. I am blown away each time He allows it..but that is my journey. Ive learned God wants us to have a humble heart and spirit. He will reveal himself if you relinquish the control that you perceive yourself to have.. There are somethings in this life you will never understand until you pass to the other side…
All the atheist will say it’s not God but it’s the work of the devil,you guys will believe devil but not God because you are scared of devil but God won’t scare you so he doesn’t exist
dena, this may come as a bit of a surprise to you, but atheists, the folks who do not believe an imaginary friend is real, also do not believe that an imaginary enemy is real either. No supernaturalism is required at all to explain speaking in tongues.
You can’t make references to studies from 30-40 years ago and claim to be giving the real story about ANYTHING. I noticed that you totally ignored this URL the first time it was posted, so I’ll post again:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html
This is an article about a study done THIS century about speaking in tongues, which has proved conclusively that practitioners are NOT in control of what is happening. Just because people can consciously imitate it does not mean that it is not a valid phenomenon, in the same way that is easy to imitate someone having a seizure, but actual seizures are still a real thing.
So, the REAL real story is that modern scientists have no idea what causes speaking in tongues… All they DO know is that it is NOT something that people are doing deliberately.
Burden of proof rests with those making the claim that this is supernatural, and so far there is exactly zero evidence that speaking in tongues is supernatural. Not fully understanding something does not warrant making a leap to “therefore magic”
Unfortunately, if “Magic” was real, it would be completely improvable. The rules have been set. “All things are cause of molecules and energy” ironically because all we can observe are molecules and energy.
If there were anything beyond it we could not know it, because it’s the same concept as if we were 2D creatures living in a 3D world- 2D may not observe 3D, yet 3D may observe 2D.
Not to side with Dena, just to add depth towards the difficulty of the point and the simplicity you paint it on.
Well, as I’ve already pointed out, the claim is essentially that there is indeed magical intervention taking place within our “molecules and energy” reality. Are you aware of any independently verifiable objective evidence of such intervention?
… Going back to what I posted, there cannot be verifiable evidence for “magic” (we are using this silly word for supernature yes?) which for some reason means that it cannot be true? isn’t it this realm of thinking where we resort to probable theories rather than tests of molecules and energy?
If there were truths beyond nature, they cannot be found through the study of nature unless we study it’s concepts (the philosophy of it all). this can be our only clue. It is the philosophical questions that drives beliefs in supernature.
It’s the fact man is born desiring meaning in a universe without one, or that man desires more than survival in a universe without any bias to preference that drives the God theory. It’s not that there are gaps that we do not know how to fill, it’s that there are gaps that an ultimate meaning, or ultimate personhood only could fill.
I’m not even about trying to sway you either way, I’m just explaining how silly this idea “if we cannot prove it without question, it does not exist” thinking. According to that standard, you couldn’t prove history, or even that you yourself exist…
God is a Amazing Loving Father ,
I should think He Feels sad and amused by His Children’s comments !!
I agree with most of the opinions on this blog ,
due to the fact that I am a Christian , but also a realist ,
I understand that I don’t understand .
God has done so many things for me ( all of which could be explained away by being utterly rational ).
But I Love my wife or is it just chemical reaction ….mmmmmm !!
Science can tell you how things work , but never why ,
maybe it’s because God does Love us .
I speak in tongues , but I know Christian’s who don’t .
Freddie Mercury said Nothing really matters at all ,
How silly of course it does !!
god bless us .
Peter … I do truly get that you believe all that for what can best be described as cultural and emotional reasons, and that you are part of a community that asserts such claims.
But stop and ask yourself this … how exactly do you know that any of that is actually true, how could you ever possibly verify and test such claims?
If indeed you don’t understand (and that is a truly honest statement), and all the things that god has done for you can be rationally explained without needing a god to explain it, the does that introduce the distinct possibility that such beliefs are simply cultural artefacts?
I know that the question wasn’t asked of me but I hope you wouldn’t mind me jumping in to give an answer. (After all I believe you’re more looking to make this point politely than get Peter’s answer specifically)
To start I would like to examine the qualifier for the question. How do we verify if something is true? There’s a few ways to go from here- either we delve into the hopeless realm of knowing nothing philosophically due towards everything just being a chemical explosion of the brain, or we agree from the start what makes something credible and we go from there lol.
I’m afraid this question isn’t as concrete as mathematics or molecules. If this God thing really was true, how COULD it be infallibly proven? Couldn’t any miracle be a trick of the eyes, or just a scientific phenomena that we don’t have an answer to yet?
So when it comes to a claim of a anything exceeding nature, I’m afraid it’s impossible to use nature specifically to prove it.
A lot of people take to probability, saying “there’s a greater chance a “super person” is beyond nature than for what we see happen to be natural”. Me personally, I don’t receive the same feeling or pleasure from anything else I’ve found than when I worship or pray intimately. I’m not talking about a heightened happiness or a sense of purpose, I’m talking about something on your stomach that is unique and great. During my skeptic years this feeling left, and couldn’t be recreated.
So I guess the question is what would you find to be proof enough? Note too that the bar you set might be influenced by your desire for there to be a God or not.
Hi Chrispy … in essence, the Christian claim is that god manifests in our reality, and that is essentially a testable claim.
If indeed there is nothing to be measured or detected, then in what way exactly does the proposed god concept differ from a fantasy?
Thanks for the questions! I’m afraid the statement “all things that are true are verifiable” is a self destructive statement… After all it dissallows us from believing anything historically, or from believing our senses accurately show us reality. The concept “science is the only begetter of truth” is a flawed concept: you can’t prove that scientifically.
Yet I find the jump between “good cause to believe” and “fairy tale” to be a large stretch. I have good cause to believe my family loves me (they could be lying, but it’s unlikely), that Australia really exists (I trust the news people on this one) and that world war 2 did happen (it’s unlikely it’s a lie).
So I’m afraid the question isn’t so much “can we prove this scientifically” (note there are a ton of things we must believe without/before science. We just don’t realize them) as it is “do we have good cause to believe.”
Isn’t this almost the same though? This probability thinking? After all, not to go too far into philosophy, don’t we know 2+2=4 because it had never done otherwise? That the odds are so astronomically impossible that this is chance you’d have to be an absolute lunatic to believe in one instance 2+2=5?
So it’s best to apply probabilistic thinking towards things we cannot test directly. The odds are far far greater WW2 happened than a coverup. The odds are far far greater that my 5 senses are accurately taking in information than not. Perhaps the question needs to move away from “Irrefutable proof” towards “what makes the most sense” (after all, this realm of inquiry can only yield this method)
Any person idiot or not or religious or not is able speak in “tongues”, if everyone is capable of uttering unintelligible vowel sounds (it’s really very easy) it then follows that everyone is capable of attracting the attention of god, there are no exceptions.
Those who believe their tongue speaking is a special direct communication with an indefinable entity are either raving narcissists or they’re severely delusional.
I understand americans have led themselves to believe they are exceptional, they are certainly exceptional when it comes to inventing their wild array of ever changing religious movements, based on even wilder interpretations of a book called the bible. I’ve visited many american religious blogs and websites where competition is rife on whose version of the book is best and most true, a strange obsessive american pastime.
I must say Americans are exceptionally talented when it comes to exporting junk food, junk movies, junk capitalism, junk war, junk technology, junk drugs and junk religion to the rest of the world. It’s getting very messy everywhere. Rock n Roll was good.
I’m making broad statements here about religious loons in particular who believe god speaks only to them in a unique way, obviously and fortunately there are many more sane educated americans who have contributed much good to the on going human experience.
It’s one world, no one gets off Scott free, get used to it tongue speakers you are not exceptional, you’re human, get a life and be kind to everyone.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
Why should people understand what you are saying, speaking in tongues is for your own edification? The Bible says it very clearly.
1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not
// Why should people understand what you are saying //
Because the bible clearly says that that tongues are a sign for those that do not believe … The bible says that very clearly.
No recourse to the supernatural is required to explain any of this. I’m not a believer, and yet I can quite happily speak in tongues.
Monique A.
January 20, 2015 at 15:10
1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
Why should people understand what you are saying, speaking in tongues is for your own edification? The Bible says it very clearly.
Why not look at Mark16:17 If you speak in new tongues then you can also cast out devils, can pick up serpents with their hands, drink deadly poison will not harm them, LAY HANDS on the SICK and they SHALL RECOVER. Not like today only recover if my faith is strong or their faith is weak, or in time you might get better. Can you do all these things?? WHY NOT??
Romans 8: 26 … the spirit itself makes intercession for us with GROANINGS with can “NOT BE UTTERED” if THE SPIRITS GROANINGS can “NOT BE UTTERED”.
HOW COME YOU CAN ÜTTER THEM??
Fascinating article and I thank you for sharing. For almost one year now I have been looking for God following an accident in January 2014 that changed my life. My search took me back to my original faith (the Catholic Church) but after a while I felt empty again and lost. My search led me to a bible reading group and I reluctantly attended a meeting as I had been embedded in the Catholic religion since birth and to search for God elsewhere seemed like betrayal.
At this meeting on 14/1/2015 the Pastor called on the congregation to stand and pray and what I heard freaked me out completely. People all around me began to babble frantically in what I can only describe as a frenzied manifestation. I felt frightened and threatened and thought that I had walked into some sort of cult. Don’t get me wrong, I was told about the speaking in tongues thing but had never witnessed it before….phewww
I left that meeting with an invitation to come again next week. I said I would but I was already looking for excuses in my mind that I could put forward for NOT going back. I went home and digested what I had witnessed that night and thought those people to be bunch of weirdo’s. After all, nothing they were saying made and sense whatsoever. One guy sounded Russian and another knelt on the floor with his face in a chair and made what I can only describe as, ‘bleating’ noises.
I resisted the temptation then and there to turn to my friend as say, “What in the name of God did you bring me too?”
15/1/2015 Midnight exactly….I went out to my garage to have a cigarette before heading to bed and in mid stride and without conscious thought I began to speak words that made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I could hear myself talking but I had no idea what started it or why I was doing it. This continued for 2 minutes and I began to cry while it was happening and then a wave of emotion flooded over me like I was inside the safest place on earth during a storm. After it stopped I dropped to me knees to pray and it started again.
I have never felt connected to God before and what happened I can’t yet explain. I’ve been told I’ve been filled with the Holy Spirit and Jesus has accepted me finally because I went in search of him and I genuinely repented for my sins and sought his forgiveness.
#Dave. I found you because I hit the net today looking for answers. My open mind leads me to look at believers and sceptics alike. You stated at the end of this blog, “I’m not presenting you with an alternative opinion, but rather with hard solid scientific proof that it is not real.” I read some results of some random testing on students but I didn’t see any scientific proof in your blog.
Right now I don’t know what’s right and what’s wrong but I can say that I have never felt this loved in my entire life and I know its not in my head.
Thanks again for sharing
Scientific Study on brain activity while speaking in tongues:
“www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/oct06/glossolalia.htm”
It is different than a made up language. All language uses the Language Center in our brain, while speaking in tongues does not, which scientifically proves that the speaker does not have control over the speach.
:)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html
Hi Stephanie
Your link about tests on tongues, are their any tests done on non believers that speak in tongue, if so can you direct us to the relevant site. What was the reason for tongues at Pentecost? how many times did tongues happen in Acts, reason for tongues in Acts?
30 AD Acts 2 Pentecost – tongues ( various earthly languages).
33 AD Acts 8 Samaria Philip has to get Apostles Peter and John
34 AD Acts 9 Paul conversion
41 AD Acts 10 Cornelius (Peter sheet vision)
54 AD Acts 19 Emphases (john the Baptist believers)
Tongues 30 AD : 3 years later Samaria
4 years later Pauls conversion
11 years later Cornelius
24 years later John the Baptist believers
Interesting to see that tongues were mentioned at various intervals of times, unbelievers were always there, unbelieving Jews. Tongues sign for the unbeliever not believer.
If tongues was important and a help in your faith, WHY ARE pastors, deacons and elders ARE NOT required to speak IN TONGUES see 1 Timothy 3:1-7. TITUS 1. How can unbelievers and normal Christians speak in tongues but the pastors , elders and Deacons is not a requirement ??
Just a few interesting thoughts
To all the dumb shits who still believe its something from the bible didnt read acts 2: 1- 20 stupid ass peoole dont know how to read
Um I just read the passage in Acts (again) and I’m confused, because the scripture(s) you cited are evidence for speaking in tongues being in the Bible… It’s literally what they were doing. (Speaking in other tongues ((languages)) through the Holy Spirit)
You best be careful when you speak so condescending and matter of fact, because it tends to really bite you in the butt (like here)
I was looking for some objective explanation on speaking in tongues because I do not believe it is divine. It is invented by man. It is invented by people who wants to rule people’s mind in order to manipulate them to do things what they would not do otherwise. It is about power. A self-proclaimed pastor – because who decides that he/she is suitable for spiritual leading?; only himself/herself – wants to chain his flock to himself to ensure his financial position.
These people claim that they can help miracles to happen to you. I think that miracle is called miracle because it is rare. Why should you experience miracles everyday? To convince you that you are truly belong to God (but they mean to belong to them).
I am not an atheist, I am a Catholic. I believe that we do not have to adjust the religion to our wishes. We are for the religion and not the religion is for us. The whole New Age is about brainwashing. People turned away from the historical religions because of their own reasons but they realised that something is missing. So they try to twist the words of the Bible, abusing psychological techniques to please themselves. I read once a very interesting writing on the net about the techniques used to brainwash people. The writer had to hide his identity because he revealed “trade secrets”, and because these same techniques are also in use in the secular world, in marketing and political convincing, i.e. the most powerful people of the world.
What I noticed that there is a close correlation between the “Christian” and pagan/shamanistic methods to subvert the mind. In Africa, a lot of people still believe in their ancestors, ghosts, good and evil spirits, magic objects, superstitions. According to them, it does not hurt if you go to see a medicine man or witchdoctor, besides practicing their religion, be it Christianity or Islam. It is also not uncommon to go to Catholic church this Sunday, to a Pentecostal another Sunday. The evangelical/pentecostal pastors invite them to visit their “church”, saying that they do not have to abandon their original religions. And people go because they are curious. And somehow these people gradually change and become the new followers of the pastor. They start to walk around with a Bible, carrying everywhere so that they should not miss any spell of free time to read it, and slowly they start to become changed people with whom it is difficult to argue, discuss, converse. As if you are hitting a wall. Majority of these born-again Christians are women. Maybe because at home they are oppressed and the only place they can release their frustrations is at these “evangelical explosions”. When some of the believers become knowledgeable with the techniques, suddenly they leave their church and establish a new one, where they introduce themselves as pastors, bishops (!) The believers have to go to church at least twice a week because the brainwashing effects wean away with time, so it has to be reinforced frequently, preferably in every 3-4 days. Better if you practice daily! Then you are totally overpowered.
I never spoke in tongues and never wish to do so. Because why I feel uncomfortable when they shout and scream and cry in top of their voice? When I wake up at night and hear their “prayers”, feel their music, I want to run away and hide? The vibrations shake my innermost, their guttural voices and “babbles” stir me up, in all aspects negatively. It is orchestrated, there is a pattern, it is purposefully done. If you are in the spiritually enhanced state, you should not know what is happening. But the pastor leads with the type of screams, the volume, as if “now the men should be louder”, “now is the women’s turn”. Why their baby cries during the whole ordeal everyday? I am sure that the baby feels the same way as me. She is tortured days in and days out but she cannot run away. That baby does not have a choice, she has been maimed in mind by her parents. But still I have my own will, and I will resist. Because this speaking in tongues is satanic. It is brutal. It is there to break you. To own you.
Dave, I am happy that there are people out, like you, who could find a way to get out of the trap, who could come up for oxygen from the haze. You are very brave. I wish you strength and perseverance.
Does believing in something make it true? Are emotional experiences always suspect? How do past experiences compared with present similar ones, but with changed emotions and attitudes, figure in the construct of truth? Hi. Just got to this page, and I’ve come across several interesting views.
I am a believer because of things that have happened to me in my past. Like how in one of my morning meditations, I was prompted to approach the first person I met during breakfast in the hostel I was staying, and he was stunned that I engaged him in a conversation about Jesus for the first time ever. I didn’t know the reason till several years after, that it was because the night before he had a nightmare in which he called out my name as he sought to get help from Jesus. This was even though it was another hostel mate who had been talking to him about the Christian faith. Moreover, I was not among his close friends. He did not become a Christian then, but it started him exploring, and only years later did I discover he had accepted Christ.
But I digress a bit here. The issue on this blog is that of speaking in tongues. Somebody argued that whilst he had experienced feelings that convinced him of the spiritual truth of tongues at a stage when he believed in the phenomenon, he no longer has those feelings now even if he physically replicates them, because he no longer believes in it. Just as people can easily fake praying, being happy or sad, in fact anything, so speaking in tongues can be faked. So one question is, what does it mean to fake something. Too complicated to give it justice in this limited space, but suffice to say for now that attitude has a lot to do with it.
The outward appearance of speaking in tongues could be the same, but it is the heart that makes the experience real or false. The bible has spoken about having the trappings of the spirit, but denying the power thereof. And there is the case of the magician, recorded in the book of Acts, who tried to replicate the powerful healing and deliverance of the apostles by calling on the name of Jesus, but failed because of his incongruous attitude, or at least that is what the passage focuses on.
Another point about faking… One of the most popular video presentations on ted.com (TED being the annual conference featuring eminent speakers on varied disciplines) is an updated spin on body language. If one assumes a positive posture that reflects confidence for long enough and frequently enough, one can develop confidence. In other words, “fake it till you make it”. Could it be that many believers in the supernatural tongue are in a way faking it to develop it? And of course there are times when the form of the act is missing, but the power is still manifested, because the belief is there. So attitude is a big factor.
I have desisted from passing judgment on what others do as they seek that warm and meaningful worship experience. God sees only the heart, but I am not God. Neither is science.
I would also be wary of passing judgment on those who do not believe in glossolalia. I would in fact be glad for them, for as they remain serious about seeking the truth, God will reveal Himself to them eventually.
God’s peace be with all.
Hihi all
Just a note. Are people that speak in tongues are holier than those who do not? People that speak in tongues are walking by sight and nt by faith. 1) they do not believe signs that have already been done. 2) they are curious thrill seeker, ask any tongue speaker why was there tongues at Penetecost they would not know. 3) they something for themselves. 4) excuse for their unbelieve. This is why the ALPHA course is doing so well.
Mario, I take it that English is not your native language. Are you saying the modern tongue speaking trend is become fashionable mainly amongst those disillusioned and cynical because previously held religious outlooks and certainties have been so thoroughly debunked via the spread of scientific knowledge and reason? That this has resulted in the widespread mental and emotional babble, anger and confusion? People in a mindless alpha state are generally easier to control and manipulate, why is this so difficult to understand and who in their right mind could possibly want to be controlled or manipulated by questionable authorities?
I’m not quite sure what you believe has been debunked. The God question is one of philosophy.
How can the study of molecules and energy ever prove something higher than molecules and energy? Don’t you see how the thinking there is intrinsically flawed?
It’s not the spread of reason that has combatted Theism, it’s the spread of a worldview that sneaks in as a subtext that ironically isn’t a necessity of rational thought!
But we all interpret the data we receive based upon prior beliefs. There is no pure neutralism. If we believe that God is possible, than we shall interpret data differently than the one who thinks God isn’t.
If we find a cloud formation in the sky that says “I’m God and I’m real”, one man would say “wow there’s a God!” One would say “wow how random is that!” and another would say “those Theists are manipulators and did this!
All received the same data, and all received different conclusions. Pure science stops at “what are those clouds made of, and how do they normally behave?”
If I’m so off topic I apologize. I wanted to tackle the type of thinking that most follow who believe these things have been debunked. Being a skeptic myself so long, I understand the reservations.
Look up cognitive dissonance.
And
http://alwaysquestionauthority.com/category/humanities/religion/religious-indoctrination-religion/
I know what cognitive dissonance is, I’m just wondering what its place is in this topic.
I would stress the idea of desiring meaning in a universe without meaning is a prime example of cognitive dissonance.
Oxyoptica gala boitkopednirso jedmik ksorjidge wega snoix nilmasoji sigpojl roripootit heganospo vigsrecth eskuptpoop dingolwiji berukzinjicci snogwrotica.
I suddenly just now, after reading the irrefutable testimony by tongue speakers, was filled to the brim with demonhoodic overwhelmingnism, then, quite overcome with uncontrollable cadencelike sonoristic sponta-iniquity and inspiritualistical emotionlessnicity, I found the above mysterious foreign sounding words just erupting from my sub-unconsciously conscious mind, I was all alone and helplessly compelled to write them down…. (I already used spell check)
Can a glossophiliac holiness expert please interpret my experience .. Do I need to know if I’m saved or not…. or do I just need a neuro-scientific shrink to explain away my anxiety about being a fallible human? Oh, wait! I just remembered, I forgot to make a tape recording, maybe I just imagined it all.
I need help too! Somehow I keep believing that the universe has meaning simply because I have given my life one! I know it’s wrong, but when I do that, I cover up the empty reality that everything has no meaning by thinking that if I say it does, than to me it does!
I want to believe that only meaning begets meaning, but that doesn’t look like molecules so I’m not allowed to believe it :( all my super smart friends with PHD’s and big words seem to be so good at reactions/reactions that they can’t help me much in philosophy…
It’s the same thing with morality :( I keep trying to objectively tell people they’re wrong about things even though I can’t escape the fact that right and wrong boil down to simply what the majority likes or wants :/
I keep trying to believe that life is better than death but it’s just not. I have chemical reactions in my brain that make me want to live more than die. I’m glad I get to listen to them, because man, if we really believed there was no objective right or wrong, we could pick it! And I want to be able to control people…
I also want to believe that my mind is giving me accurate portrayals of reality, but I can’t! Everything I think is simply a chemical reaction of the mind, so therefore if it say’s it’s real, the data must be right! It must be real! My sensors are never wrong. There is no question that I am presented by data from my 8 senses, I just want to accept that all the data is accurate, and that that’s the ONLY way I can know things! I am a group of molecules looking at molecules.
So where I need help is not whether or not I can believe these things. I like to believe these things! They feel good. The thing is whether or not I have a rational basis for believing these things…
But who cares? I’m just going to borrow beliefs that can only come about from some sort of Theism while poking daggers at Theism. It’s fun! Mommy and Daddy lied about the Easter Bunny, Santa, and Tooth Fairy, so I learned from a REALLY young age that if sounds incredible, it’s a lie!
Poking fun? Yeah :)
If it engulfs you with rage, you probably shouldn’t be dishing out medicine you can’t take, which probably means that your last post was meant to be more combative, which probably means you should stay away from sarcasm. Ugly means of verbal war for sure (carries the undertone that you find your “opponent” stupid)
If it just makes you smile, than right back at ya :P
No Chrispy, nothing directed at you in particular, just my own outrageously flippant view on emotional religious manipulation. Whatever blows your hair back is just fine with me. That Jim Jones persuaded +-1000 people to swallow poisoned kool-aid is always something to keep in mind when getting involved in popular charismatic mass movements.
Here is an interesting link that may help you understand my scepticism.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos114.htm
Thanks for sharing this link, Lucy, which contains a lot of food for thought. I’d say that going into alternate states such as alpha is the point of many spiritual techniques, precisely to bypass the critical mind and harness the by magnitudes greater perceptive power of the subconscious. And/or access the spiritual realm?! (Genuine) speaking in tongues and charismatic chanting maybe or may involve a kind of self-hypnosis, that opens the mind for “words of knowledge” which may be uncensored insights of the subconscious. Or messages from the spiritual realm?! The purpose of these techniques(?) is spiritual healing, not manipulation, but we have to be aware of the black sheep that exploit the openness/suggestibility. The Bible warns of bad shepherds and calls for a “discernment of spirits”. Also, Jesus demanded that spiritual gifts and services are given free of charge. Preachers and churches that accumulate wealth may not be followers of Jesus Christ, who preached and practised poverty.
I would also like to pose a story here of how I find differences between the choice to speak in tongues, and the overcoming of the Spirit into speaking in tongues.
When I was a young junior high kid, I remember attending a youth conference downtown. The message was powerful, but the speaker did a puzzling thing. The speaker started going amongst the crowd and laying his hands on people and shouting some sort of prayers I couldn’t understand due to the scene being so puzzling. The speaker than does the unthinkable: he goes right to me, places his hand on my head, and shouts some prayer and I drop like a rock. I was not pushed, I didn’t even WANT to go down, but here’s where the strange thing happened. I was amongst a crowd, but I literally blanked out. When I came to my senses, I was lying on my back and 15 minutes had passed. I realized I had been weeping and I had been saying things. My mouth was moving, but I had no idea what was going on. When I became… self conscious again (best way to put it) I stopped “speaking”. It was all the result of whatever weird spiritual thing that happened to me.
Nowadays, as a pastor myself, I can speak this “jibberish”. It’s something that I have to do, but often times it happens at the peak of being overcome by emotion or prayer.
If you find skepticism to be the better of choices than that’s fine. Stick to what you believe to be wisest, but I just can’t reconcile this experience even amongst all my doubting. I was just fine before that night the dude put his hands on our foreheads. I didn’t even want to go down. Later in life amongst my doubts, I also concluded that the same intensity of skepticism towards God, when moved towards my certainty of my senses accurately portraying reality, or applying that same skepticism towards even man’s reasoning, I was in ruins. I was demanding more proof for God than I was out of anything else in my life. Should I use those same standards for skepticism towards the tools that allow me to reason, I disprove the very tools that give me the ability to prove or disprove!
All I could provide was my personal experience in the most honest way I could. I doubt it will sway any minds, as I know it wouldn’t have swayed me in my strongest points of skepticism, but at least maybe you could understand where some believers are coming from with this.
I posted my last comment to the wrong thread above.
I previously posted my experience. I agree with your comments. What is interesting is that everyone who has experienced this is not trying to sway anyone to believe that they are correct. It is a personal expierence that deepens that worship experience. Others who don’t experience it may have another avenue to deepen their relationship. The wonderful feeling that I get makes me feel the upmost joy for the Highest, and that is what I need to continue to serve.
http://104.154.120.89/religion/speaking-in-tongues-the-real-story/#comment-8496
Your comments make a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing your story!
Hi Chrispy
We must remember that FEELINGS, EMOTIONS AND EXPERIENCES are not the things we should trust, use or believe as these can change within seconds or after a while. Therefore as the Word of God says all in 2 Timothy 3:16….profitable for reproof, correction….. we see that scripture is always constant.
So if the word says that tongues have ceased and people are still finding the experience, one question to ask, Is it from God or Satan. Back to the word, if all false religions are also speaking in tongues, casting out demons, healing are the elect being deceived as well? Is it from God?
Maio
The importance of language is to communicate.
Is it not possible that if there really is a God, and if there really is a Spirit, that this God could have made it so that man’s Spirit’s communication to God REPLICATE natural speech? Supposing God were real of course, God doesn’t need this “Jibberish” to make natural sense, as long as the person doing it is doing it in communication to God and God the speaks to the Spirit.
I just don’t find the argument “It doesn’t come out to be more than jibberish” to be a valid disproof. I’d think someone who wants to make that kind of statement needs to first prove God needs this spiritual communication to need to make sense naturally.
(I find the conflict rises from trying to apply the rules of the natural to the supernatural. If there really is a supernatural, you cannot apply the rules of the natural to it. If it coincided with molecules, and energy, ect, it would simply be a statement of the natural. Yet an argument between the possibility of the supernatural is needed before any further discussion here is useful)
Last thing and I’ll shut up. I want to also point towards the purpose of tongues making sense to those around them. If there are others present where you are speaking in tongues, like the disciples, it makes sense that God may have it be an exact language to influence those around them. If not and its sole purpose is between you and God, why should it matter if your “tongues” make sense?
If I were you I would think this answer sounds dodgy, but really I don’t find why tongues HAVE to always be speaking in a different language Biblically
I previously posted my experience. I agree with your comments. What is interesting is that everyone who has experienced this is not trying to sway anyone to believe that they are correct. It is a personal expierence that deepens that worship experience. Other who don’t experience may have another avenue to deepend their relationship. The wonderful feeling that I get makes me feel the upmost joy for the Highest, and that is what I need to continue to serve.
http://104.154.120.89/religion/speaking-in-tongues-the-real-story/#comment-8496
People often laugh at, fear, and criticize that which they do not understand. To call it “meaningless babbling” is practically an ignorant statement (especially coming from one who hasnt experienced it). The language centers of the brain are ALSO inactive while speaking in tongues. And to clear up the disbelief, these centers are still ACTIVE when rambling that is not speaking in togues takes place. Which means these two concepts are different entirely. But , of course , i’m only 18 and the youth knows nothing about anything (sarcasm)…but if one is SEEKING TRUTH, view BOTH sides of the equation. Dont just come to a site TITLED “Skeptical Science”.
“The language centers of the brain are ALSO inactive while speaking in tongues.” This is a scientific statement, can you give a pointer to the original research?
If the language centers are not involved, then speaking in tongues is not “speaking in unknown languages” but it is a flow of syllables from deeper layers, spontaneous, free expression.
Mario
I hear that tongue speaking is used to drive out demons from people? Any comments
Hello…I actually got to this page BC I didn’t know what a “foursquare church” was. Anyhoo..I used to be steeped in the Baptist church…lots of fire and brimstone, every damn thing under the sun was a sin, youth group, camp, ad nauseum… And I believed every word…but I noticed something about my faith…I didn’t really seem to have any…every Sunday and Wednesday I would re-ask to be saved even though we were taught that you can’t become “un-saved” I was never sure if I actually meant it in my “heart of hearts” then I went to a friends church and watched people flopping around and speaking in tongues. I had no idea what was happening. I started doing it too BC I wanted to blend in and I was literally making the same sounds as the girl next to me and the pastor was thrilled I had been touched by god …that’s kinda when the honeymoon ended…if this was the language of the angels bestowed by god his own self then why was I ablehurt?, I guess thwart or make an imposter of myself in his presence. I started actually doing research for myself instead of just relying on the pastors interpretation of passages. I looked for discrepancies and found them everywhere. I panicked BC my family are all uber christian, but I never truly looked at the hypocrisy of my friends and family. TT ey were judgmental…and shallow and hateful…where was the love that Jesus preached? Also I immediately dropped the idea of original sin…if God is all loving, then the sin should at least wait until you are conscious of your actions…if god was all loving why did he flood the earth, or allow the Hebrews to be enslaved, if god has infinite patience, wisdom, and love why was there so much death associated with Christianity. Now I am not stupid I know that a lot of atrocious acts are carried out by imperfect us, but if he is all powerful and all knowing and everywhere at all times why does he allow us to hurt. Free will is a cop out argument I thought, BC what parent would willingly let their child hurt? I stopped believing in hell because no god would create such a place loving or not. I guess now I’m an agnostic at worst and a poly theist at best…after all even the bible acknowledges that there ARE other gods, he just wants to be king of the mountain…which is something I noticed several other religions wanted as well…who can say who is right? Only the dead and they aren’t blabbing it about. I’m glad I found your page, even if I am 2 years late to the convo…
You have been seriously deluded by your family of imposter-Christians.
1) Did they tell you God was all-loving? His key attribute is holiness.
2) God does not exist for the sole purpose of catering to your whims.
3) Every “discrepancy that I am aware of has been addressed and shown to be bogus.
4) Jesus can say who is right because he DID come back from the dead to tell about it.
Why not let each other believe what they believe in. If it makes your life better and your surroundings then there is no harm in it. There is no good and bad in a perfect world.
I was a skeptic until it happened to me.
Being an introverted person, I don’t typically respond with “amen” and “preach, preacher” encouragement that many people yell out during service, so I could never fathom speaking in tongues. But what happened to me was, I was praying in during service when I started to feel this sensation of warmth and tingling in my body almost like pulsating. My stomach began to quiver (almost like a vibration) and contract a bit…I was wondering “what in the world is going on” but I loved this feeling and wanted more of it, so I kept praying. I started subtlely swaying back and forth (I’m still trying to be inconspicuous and no let anyone see this) and this utterance seemed to just come up out of nowhere –that I tried to keep silently contained by putting my hand over my mouth. The feeling still pulsating throughout my body. Then I let go. The sounds that came out of my mouth were flowing like it was another language. (I’ve tried to make up ‘language’ before and this is nothing like it.) I tried to stop but it just kept coming. I was conscious of the experience, yet I was in this state of bliss- total bliss like I had never seen or experienced before. Now whether that was a gift of the spirit or my own neurchemicals re-routing or decreasing in certain areas of my brain and body, what I do know is this: It was the most amazing and exhilarating experience that I have ever known. If you have never experienced it, I’m sorry that you don’t truly understand what it is like. I dont practice it everytime I pray, only when I truly feel that sensation in my body. For those Christians that say , ‘I stopped because I dont believe its real anymore’, and try to persuade others to believe the same. I believe that it’s just no longer new to you. I urge you to look in your Bible a Roman 14:1-23. verse 2-4 pretty much sums it up: “One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?
And before I get response about ‘eating anything’ and ‘eating vegatables’ you can subsitute with “speaking in tongues”.
Like you comment very much! You write: “whether that was a gift of the spirit or my own neurchemicals re-routing or decreasing in certain areas of my brain and body”. I’d say: Both at the same time. All spiritual necessarily has a material manifestation if it affects us or is for us to take notice of it.
The following statement does not refer to your story but is more general: It does not make sense to say that speaking in tongues is “just” a neuro-chemical effect. That is just the reductionist fallacy. No one would say a picture of Rembrandt is just light of different frequencies. All the interesting semantic layers are lost by such pointless reductionism which is nonetheless prevalent in discussions about brain and mind…
Thank You Andreas.
Your whole arguement hinges on “spirit”. What does “spirit” mean…really….I dont know of any peer reviewed study that has proven “spirit” the catch word for all that is not understood. A god of the gaps if you will.
I also do not know of such a peer reviewed study. I doubt any study will ever “prove” `”spirit” the catch word for all that is not understood’. As for instance, your comment (which is also not understood).
Whenever I read the comments made by christians, I fall back on myself and try very hard to figure out the persistent why’s of their very strong superstition, they may as well be speaking in incomprehensible tongues as far as I’m concerned.
These crazed ventriloquists for the god of the bible, seem painfully incapable of critical thinking or even reflecting on the harmful nature of their claims. Just from the above thread:
“If God would reveal the hidden potential of His entire creation, mankind would commit suicide.” and “Science in interpretive and the evidence is tainted by the human experience.. God does not reveal himself or His Kingdom to imposters..”
Hard to believe that progress has not made the slightest indent on so many deluded true believers who fervently continue to believe in hell, demons, and a tyrannical and basically impotent psychopathic god who created beings that it despises and ruthlessly kills in the most evil uncaring manner. (Except the special zombie christians of course, who win the free pass and get to go to psychopath’s heaven)
I hate to break it to you all, but quoting meaningless scripture is not going to get you guys off the hook, you are not and will never be saved from the fate of all living creatures. Better get a life while you still can, stop dividing the world into them and us and do something more constructive in making the earth a better home for all its inhabitants. Whether you like or not, your unbelievable supernatural claims have been refuted and superseded by Science, get used to it. And no, science does not claim to have all the answers, but it has painstakingly developed and continues to develop a far more reliable method of investigating the nature of reality that is infinitely superior to a hundred million different garbled interpretations of a collection of ancient bits of Stone Age writings.
Well said!
Faith in God is your missing ingredient…Science is a futile notion in attempting to explain something of higher order or purpose.
Romans 8:7 The carnal mind is enmity with God..
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Mr. Gamble.. Faith begins where science ends.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him..
Science in interpretive and the evidence is tainted by the human experience.. God does not reveal himself or His Kingdom to imposters..
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship him in spirit and truth.
If God simply spoke the entire universe into existence, why base your own existence on another man’s observation or your own broken experience?
If God would reveal the hidden potential of His entire creation, mankind would commit suicide.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I can copy and paste a hundred scientific documents that disagree with everything you copied…key word COPIED….like they have done for ages. Copying and repeating something by a million others doesnt m ake it true…you do know that dont you? …mmm I thought not…try..just try…going a little wee bit deeper than copy and paste…look at refernces outside the bible that support your claim….oh…sorry…there are none.
Hi Dougal, if we assume for a moment that the collective testament is truthful to the described experience, can you, or the scientific method give an evidence based counter explanation for the hundreds of thousands who argue the cause of speaking in tongues as a supernatural experience? Is testimony not a legitimate source of evidence, and made even more plausible when independently collected? I would dismiss it more willingly if the testimony was constructed by a single organisation and hierarchy, but this simply isn’t the case. Individuals, unrelated to religious sect or institution have witnessed to the same experience over the past 2000 years. If you agreed, (which I assume you don’t) then surely the scientific community would be more fascinated to explain such a phenomenon and not just mock those who claim it be spiritual?
Confusion- You believe Australia (insert any country you have never visited) is there, yet you’ve never been there. You believe the pictures you’ve seen and the stories you’ve heard. That makes you a “copier” in your terms…
If you want to discuss the realm of the “verifiable”, I’m afraid you cannot believe in anything written about history…
Everybody uses standards to attack what they disagree with while not applying those same standards to their own beliefs or lives… this is just a common aspect of “cognitive dissonance”
And I’m troubled by you claiming about things written outside of the Bible not supporting the Bible… you do realize that the Old Testament writings about cultural rules and cleanliness are constantly being proven to be healthy lifestyle choices far before they could have studied or proven it to be true.
Many old testament prophecies, found in books dated/proven to have emerged before the prophecies took place, have come true such as the city of Tyre, the reunion of Israel, and the vast number of things the book of Isiah writes about Christ (Whom Josephus, who was not a Christian, verified as a Historian of Rome the credibility of the existence and “miracles” of Christ.
What’s funny is that you are probably discussing the historical aspect of the Bible. Who can prove history? Your bias decides what you give credibility over (that’s not very scientific…)
Final comment- I am following your posts around and commenting. You came here looking for a fight with your venomous childlike comments and you do not simply just get to “hit and run”.
This “scientific” logic is terribly flawed. While we both agree to believe Australia is there without ever visiting it ourselves, we also have the option of verifying this fact upon our own experimentation or by various evidence of proofs that don’t rely on personal testimony, meaning that at any point I can go and visit Australia or look at data that would verify it’s existence. The same cannot be said about God unfortunately. Ultimately, it seems to me that you’re applying an Existential perspective to your religious belief which in in its very nature is contradictory to belief in general.
Being both scientist and Christian with exposure to and practice of “speaking in tongues”, I do not see the contradiction between the scientific and the religious explanation. True glossolalia goes with a heightened mental state (according to Dr. Felicitas Goodman), and feeling the connection to God is certainly a high mental state (beyond every-day, “normal” operation of the brain). Fake glossolalia lacks the heightened state. I can always do fake glossolalia; since I experienced glossolalia for the first time, I can voluntarily produce the “babble”. But this is certainly pointless: it like doing swimming movements without being in the water.
Since we are living in a world of matter and are made of matter, everything spiritual has necessarily a material incarnation. There is no reason to believe something genuine spiritual is not happening only because something measurable, analyzable goes on in the brain.
Incessant bible/Koran reading and repetitive religious indoctrination leads to severe emotional instability and mental illness. Tongue babbling, belief in demons and hell and other unwholesome superstitious nonsense just means you’re barking mad and you should be locked up in a nicely padded cell for the safety of all sane people.
Indeed one day this may happen. It will be after a new age of enlightenment when superstitious belief systems are no longer widely accepted. Anyone witnessed to speak in tongues will be seen as having a mental illness.
I have heard about ‘speaking in tongue’ for years but have never seen or heard anyone do it. I have not concioulsy done it. However, for many years right through until today I often wake myself up becasue I am talking. It is not a language I know and I do not speak any other language. What I hear is never realted to a dream. It is like I’m on a beach with my eyes closed and I hear what is going on but there is no thought. Over the years I have heard and members of my family have heard three seperate voices. A normal tone speaking voice, a gutteral voice and a voice tha is soft almost like a wisper. It is not english, it is not anyting I know. It is articualte, it has a cadance like a language. It starts and stops. My family says it is like hearing one side of a conversation. To me this has nothing to do with God or religion but I sure would like to understand it. I have finally gotten some recording of it and after I get get the tape enhanced I hope to take it to a linguist at one of the universities to see what (if anything) they can tell me. I just ope someone would take a serious approach toward it. If it is jibberious–fine–tell me that. If it isn’t then what is it?
What you describe, Bob, does sound similar to my experience in some ways, especially when you say, “It is articulate, it has a cadence like a language.” It may or may not have anything to do with God. I have heard that the devil can also cause this phenomenon to occur.
Both my grandfather and grandmother spoke in tongues, and they were deaf and mute. Any explanation to that?
yes…they obviously were not “mute” if they could speak.
Confusion- You posing a “natural problem” to an event someone claims to be supernatural.
Example-
“My dad supernaturally flew”!-
Your response- “People cannot naturally fly”
My thoughts- He didn’t say it was natural… why bring that aspect up. You’d be better off arguing that the supernatural can’t happen, than to give useless responses like that…
I have a very close friend that lived in Mexico for a while and attended a church there. Nobody at the church could speak English except my friend and one other woman but even they didn’t speak well. At one service a girl began to speak in tongues and my friend heard her and new that she couldn’t understand English let alone speak it however when she began to speak in tongues it was in English and my friend was able to understand parts of what she was saying. How does hard solid scientific proof explain something like that?
It’s easy to explain: your friend made up a fanciful story or added some flowery details to a more mundane event, and knew you would buy it because it had something to do with God. You take the concept (and identity) of God as automatically true and choose to judge your friend’s story through the lens of that assumption, allowing yourself to believe anything so long as it reinforces your own preconceptions and ignoring the many other more plausible explanations for a story with dubious factual basis. You also distrust science whenever it conflicts with your beliefs, and likely accuse those who trust in it to also be working in a purely faithful framework (comparing their acceptance of science as equivalent to your acceptance of faith), while forgetting that it is trust in sound logic, not blind faith in supernatural fictions or hearsay, that allows a generally rational person to reach logically consistent and reasonable conclusions based in evidence. Anticipating a hostile response especially to these last comments, I’d like to clarify that I am not saying that all faith in God or a similar theological figure is inherently wrong or incompatible with logic; merely that while faith may serve a valuable purpose in attempting to address questions that have not yet been answered, it becomes problematic and irrational when those questions have been answered, yet one still allows faith to determine one’s belief in place of logic and scientific explanation.
But yet you are guilty of the same things you accuse your opponent of. Perhaps you see the world through a naturalistic (there is no super nature) lens and so you believe something beyond what you could know (this is a silly story)
And if you can dismiss a story based upon a worldview opinion, we can dismiss your opinion due to our worldview as well -_-
When I spoke in tongues for the first time, I was not even seeking it. I was being prayed for in a quiet ( very non-hyped ) situation 1 on 1 where if anything I was feeling underwhelmed and non inspired. I was however adamantly seeking God’s purpose in my life. At first I actually thought someone else had joined us praying in another language, then surprised and being aware that these words were coming from my own mouth I embraced them and spoke it out with gusto. This caused an overwhelming experience of joy. Since that time I have seen many what I would call “fake” this experience to fit in as you describe. Other versions bordered on hysteria or being hyped up, but for myself it was totally unprompted so I am comfortable to accept it for as it was, a genuine encounter of God. Since that time I have not been able to replicate that exact experience… That first encounter was defining and instant, it completely changed me. An indescribable experience that I cannot replicate or manifest in any other way. I can and continue to speak those words (or at least I think they are similar) as prompted in prayer but it is not the same.
I am rationale thinker. I have explored all the possibilities of a chemical trick in my brain to name a few – these are indeed possible realities. So that’s where faith comes into it and I choose to believe and find plausable evidence in the testimony of many others who have also encountered God in this way.
I do truly understand where you are coming from Dan … having once been in the mix, I’ve also been there and have indeed experienced something very similar to what you are describing.
Today, I no longer believe and appreciate that what I had done was to simply fool myself. Beliefs are like that, they can and do play psychological tricks with the human mind. I also understand why you have opted for faith, it is the natural outcome when you are emotionally invested in a specific belief … when all about you tell you it is true, when you would loose friends if you did not, when you have a book that tells you it is true, when you have given a lot of time to it, then just accepting it is quite understandable.
When I spoke in tongues, I was quite sure it was real … now that I am no longer a believer and have a better understanding of the psychology, I understand that I had simply fooled myself.
I’m now an atheist … and yet, I can still speak in tongues, but nothing supernatural is going on.
Hi Dave – Fair enough, I can see how you’ve rationalised away faith in context but if your experience is indeed similar to mine I find it interesting that you’ve put it down to a physiological trick. Were you led to speak in tongues by another? Were you involved in a group that practiced this?
The first instance (or event) I’m describing I cannot describe “as fooling myself” or a trick with the evidence presented to me. I would be more sympathetic to that possibility if the following were not true… 1) I wasn’t seeking the experience, 2) I never attempted it before, 3) it came out of nowhere… it was like a light switch went on, no build up, nothing. I have since seen many Pentecostals work themselves up, they encourage others to start babbling as to get it started. There is a lot of peer pressure in those situations. However, for me I was speaking in tongues before I even knew it or recognized it. I have met many with similar testimony with one thing in common, they are seeking God for who he is, not what he can do for them.
The emotional response (and while emotional has a stigma, it was is a natural and valid reaction of this manifestation) was indescribable and I’ve never felt that level of intense overwhelming love/joy/excitement ever since. I simply describe the speaking of tongues as the reaction of not knowing what to say in thankfulness to the experience or glimpse of Gods presence.
(All respect to you and how you approach Christians in non-threatening or argumentative ways.)
I agree with you 100%, Dave. As a preacher’s daughter raised in the Pentecostal church, I have extensive experience in this subject. Once I researched, considered, and discussed at length why we did the things we did, I left the church and now consider myself an atheist. I believe tongues are a product of euphoria brought on by higher-than-normal dopamine levels. The feeling one experiences in a loud, more demonstrative church is very similar to being in the middle of a large, excited group in a demonstration or a concert. Now that I understand the science behind it, it’s no longer some mystic occurrence and I don’t question my choices by someone who claims to have “experienced the power of God” because I know exactly what they’re talking about. ;-)
Interesting comment Michael … however, I would still argue that it is not evidence for anything supernatural.
Having been personally inside a Pentecostal church for several decades, I am well aware of what goes on. Having also personally practised speaking-in-tongues myself, I am also aware of how easy it is to fool yourself.
What you are experiencing is what happens as you ride the crest of an emotional wave. The religious experience is indeed eaisly replicated by simulating the appropriate parts of the human brain.
I do not deny that some, perhaps many, of those who say they speak in tongues may be faking it to fit in to a group that practices speaking in tongues. However, my own experience has been radically different.
In my case, I tried very hard to fight against the urge to speak in tongues, exerting every scrap of willpower I could find to try to prevent myself from doing it, but still did it despite my best efforts to the contrary.
This may not make sense to you, but that was my experience, and your theory does not seem to explain it.
In my experience, I can choose to speak in tongues, but there are also times when I am in prayer and it just comes over me and flowing out of me and in those times it is so powerful and I know it is real because I feel something in my spirit and begin to weep because of the intimacy felt between me and God. It is also good to focus on God when you are speaking in tongues. If I am thinking of other things and not focused on God, I don’t feel the intimacy or heat all around me. Sometimes I also have tingling or goosebumps.
Hi jcw … yep, I can still do it … and nope, it does not have the same emotional impact, but I could indeed attend a Pentecostal meeting and blend right in if I choose to be dishonest and pretend I was one of them.
If writing a paper on this, then you should check out the following …
– Samarin, William J. (1972). Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism. New York: Macmillan
– Spanos, Nicholas P.; Cross, Wendy P.; Lepage, Mark; Coristine, Marjorie (February 1986). “Glossolalia as learned behavior: An experimental demonstration”. Journal of Abnormal Psychology 95
– Goodman, Felicitas D. (1972). Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
And also, as you have already discovered, google is your friend.
Oh and this Wikipedia article may also be of interest, but do not cite it as a source, doing so will get you no marks. Instead use it to mine credible references that you can then go and research.
– http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
I’d like to know if you can still “speak in tongues” now and if it sounds and feels the same as it did when you were a believer/practitioner. Thanks, I’m writing a paper on this for my linguistics class.
Ah … I see “dickson addo” is playing the “No true Scotsman…” fallacy.
Claim he presents …
– “True” christians will always remain “true” christians
Evidence presented to verify this claim …
– Zero.
if you truly want to find the truth then die and see for it is impossible for a believer who has tasted CHRIST JESUS and the power of his name to backslide and come back to CHRIST.GOD haVE mercy on you and have a change of mind.
MORE!!!! I’ve also heard these words before, some seem same but others seem different, where there are more words and more of them are different. Some people will speak the same 10 words in different sequences. I’m wondering if these words sound the same in other languages.
James asks …
// Why would Jesus or any other person go through such torture just to prove he is Son of God? If he’s just a lunatic or extremist //
Outside of the 4 gospels, there is no evidence that he chose to do this to prove that he is the son of god. It should also be noted that people often do choose to die for a belief, even a false one, for example 9/11
// Can science really explain demonic possessions? //
Yes indeed it can. Brain Chemistry is very complex, and any flaws can indeed cause this to happen.
Finally, regarding the speaking in tongues … a story repeated after a 20 year gap. I’ve personally seen folks repeat the details for an incident I actually saw and noted how details had changed and evolved to make it a better story. Our memories can be fooled, we can fool ourselves … if somebody tells us a story, and it is a good story, we tend to repeat it and also adapt it. Find the Indian lady in question and if she does indeed confirm the details, then you have something interesting, but as with all such stories … it was long ago and she will not be available or known, so I remain skeptical.
Hi, I’m writing from Asia. I’ve been a faithful Christian for several years but am recently feeling a lost of faith. While David Coming’s book seems really convincing that the concept of God could be ‘man made’, there are some questions that still make me hopeful that there’s a God.
For example: #1-Why would Jesus or any other person go through such torture just to prove he is Son of God? If he’s just a lunatic or extremist, wouldn’t his teachings and wisdom throughout the NT be a contradiction to this suicidal and seemingly pointless act on the cross? With his charisma and wisdom, he could easily raise a rebellion and gain lots of money and power. If he’s a fraud, why would he want to kill himself?
#2 – Can science really explain demonic possessions? My church had the experience of witnessing a young girl who transformed from a totally decent kid into a foul mouth ‘demonic’ and violent person. The transformation was so drastic and scary that the folks who witnessed this still shudders to recall this incident. An exorcism was performed and the girl became normal again.
#3 – This is about speaking in Tongues. An elder in my church related an incident that happened more than 20 years ago when he was still a youth. He and 3 other Chinese boys were in the sanctuary when they noticed an Indian lady sobbing and praying in distress. Moved by her sadness, they approached her to ask if they can pray for her problems. She replied that it was too complicated and did not reveal any details but she let them pray anyway. Minutes into the prayers, one of the boys started to speak in tongues. He had no prior experience in tongues and his friends were shocked. What was even more shocking was that the Indian lady could understand every word that he prayed. She recognised it as a rare indian dialect that she hasn’t heard in a long while and his prayers were edifying to her. The bible taught that real Tongue speaking serves to edify those in distress. Also, only people who has the gift of interpretaion can understand the speaker.
Sorry for the long letter. I appreciate your thoughts in this. Thank you.
I am a believer. The enemy tries to come at me with doubt too, but I know that doubt opens a doorway for the demonic. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” Proverbs 14:12
Remember that satan is a liar, the father of lies. If it goes against the Word of God, it is a lie. God requires faith from us, not doubt. Even when our world seems to crumble we must remember, we walk by faith and not by sight! “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17
The enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy. He is a brilliant fallen angel who can appear as an angel of light. He can offer you a bite from the tree of “the knowledge of good and evil” but it is corrupt. God’s word is the only truth! Search the scriptures and meditate on God’s word. Do not allow the enemy to corrupt your thinking. Jesus is real, He loves you and has a plan for you! Never give up. Do not be deceived. satan hates mankind and wants to drag as many of us as the pit as he can.
“Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.” 1 Timothy 4:1
“Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” James 4:7
“Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
I have heard many great testimonies about people speaking in tongues! Some of it is real and some of it is fake. Some people just do it to try and fit in and others truly have the gift. I used to think it was silly and made up and now I have the gift because God put the desire in me and then I started moving my mouth in faith. Amen!
Please watch these video on supernatural languages. They will blow you away! Be blessed brother in Christ. Amen! All praise to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
http://youtu.be/BOPVeZcZvc8
http://youtu.be/SgmapN8Dz9M
Sid Roth mentioned tongues in Acts 2. Yes what was the reason ? The law Moses old covenant brought down the 10 commandments what happened? 3000 died. The Holy Spirit comes New covenant 3000 saved!!!! The sign gifts were for a specific time for specific purpose. What was the reason for the sign gifts? The Jews needed a sign and the Greeks needed knowledge???
Sid says that Paul could heal anyone, also by hankie chiefs and so on. But 1 Corinthians says that tongues, prophesy and knowledge would cease. Well was it not ceasing ALREADY later in Pauls ministry??? We see that he could not heal his co-worker Epaphroditus,Phil 2: 25-27 … and Timothy (1 timothy 5:23) …..and Paul had to leave Trophimus behind as he had got sick 2 Timothy 4:20.
Is this not enough proof that the sign gifts were ceasing????
I feel very sad for you because you have been drawn into a false religion. No one today has gifts it ended with the disciples. If you study your bible properly and cross reference the scriptures and pray sincerely for help Jehovah God will give you insight. If you hear voices or feel yourself being touched then something is wrong….only satan does that.
I pray for God to help you.
1. Does Jesus exist? Also, God is all powerful and good. Why would he have a place such as hell? People may not like me, but I’ve never wished them to be hurt or injured just because they didn’t want to be my friends. Why is the christian god so … pathetic? Also, why wouldn’t he have planned something a little less mediocre than a few hours of torture. There are human beings who have suffered far worse than Jesus ever did. There are innocent people who have starved to death, been raped, been flogged, had their nails pulled out, had their skin flayed off….. These people have begged for death and they survived for more than a few hours. As was carved in a holocaust well, one jewish person wrote this .. paraphrased from memory… I won’t ask for forgiveness from God. God will have to ask forgiveness from me. (There were people who thought that killing the Jewish people was immoral. They risked their lives, their human lives, and their freedom to help. Yet, God, who created heaven and earth, couldn’t bother. Don’t play the free will card. I would hope that if you saw a man raping a 5 year old girl, you would do everything in your power to stop that man and his free will of raping a girl. Why can’t we hold your god to minimum moral standards?)
2. demonic possession? How do you know that it isn’t some sort of psychological trauma? It’s interesting that the victim of demonic possession is often a young girl. Young girls tend to be raised as highly empathetic and sensitive. (How often do you condition your boys to behave well rather than going with the old “boys will be boys”? How often do you use social and conditional pressure to create a “perfect princess? If that’s not grounds for mental torture, I don’t know what is. Imagine what it would be like to be constantly molded and forced to act against your own wishes and desires. To have to be a perfect little princess. Don’t slip, not even once…. What a mind fuck!)
They also tend to be a class of people that are often abused, especially sexually. I think it more likely that the girl underwent a brutal mind fuck by your church and decided to suppress true memories of sexual abuse, probably by someone in the church. (You’d be surprised how much sexual abuse occurs in churches. Most of the time, people hide the information. Pedophilia, bestiality, rape – these are all common in churches unfortunately. Don’t believe me. Just look up all the times there has been sex abuse. Generally, it is the pastor who has raped or sexually abused the children. They get away with it because … I don’t know why.)
3. How do you know that the elder in your church isn’t lying? Not only that – China and india are neighbors. The human mind is an extraordinary organ. We have instances of people with brain injuries who come out of it speaking with a French accent. Please note, the person with the french accent was a British speaker and had never spoken french before. This isn’t just one case but we have several just like it. Perhaps this boy subconsciously recognized the dialect by being primed by the indian woman? Then, in a state of psychological “PCP”, he started babbling in a language that he had already been exposed to?
Babbling in tongues – if a god existed, and that god was good, he would have made it a far more permanent skill. Think how effective it would be if you wanted to be a missionary and instead of spending weeks, months, years learning a language, you magically learned that language. Think how many people you could convert.
I assume you posted in order to get the opposing sides take on your objections l. I’ll attempt to answer the objections I find to hold an attack against the faith as a whole, rather than just the simple speaking in tongues.
Your entire complaints revolve around the goodness of God. Why would an all loving Being allow horror and trauma to exist in His universe, and why would he not just step in every time to prevent atrocities?
I’m obviously not God, but I can give rational reasons to these objections that are probably true of God.
The world you would desire would be a world less educated or free than the one that we live in. You have said you do not like the “free will” argument, and I assume you don’t like it because to you it deflects responsibility from God to man, and according to your thoughts on God’s goodness, it’s apparent any type of “deflection” is absurd because it’s not man’s fault.
Yet to only look at the horrendous misuse of free will, you fail to see the benefit of it. We cannot truly do anything independently good unless we know the difference between good and evil and have equal opportunity to do both. If we could only do good, evil would not exist, and therefore goodness could not be understood or appreciated unless we held a hatred for its opposite. (We only know things to exist because we can compare it to other different existences ie: we know light exists because we can contrast it towards its lack of existence/darkness)
So if the type of universe that allows evil to exist becomes a necessity for good to exist, than we have a set stage that can’t be touched. The natural must go on as the norm. IF you and I were playing a chess game, I could let you brake a rule or two to keep the game going, but if I let you brake a rule every turn you or I did something we didn’t like, there would be no chess game. To allow you to do good, you must be allowed to do evil, or your actions are no longer good or evil.
And so you might argue is the pain of evil worth the joy of good? Considering the fact that love and hate come from good/evil, I could only imagine a universe without good/evil to be empty robotics- all inner joys for us as a creature become an impossibility.
If God is omnipotent why couldn’t he just skip this step, and make us all fully able to choose yet never desiring to choose evil? Well there is an additional aspect- we are made to love what is good. The Christian faith gets man to examine the evil he has done, and to further understand the goodness of God because we have not been very good creatures (which in the end starts to shape us into good creatures) in all of our best intentions, we have still acted selfishly, reacting out of pain, the entire way. We know what’s right and love to profit ourselves rather than do right quite often. If there is no greater joy in this universe than to love God, and the only way this can come about is for Him to show His goodness in a world where evil exists(strongly), than the most loving thing to do is to do what it takes for the most possible joy for His creatures whom He loves.
As far as hell is concerned, I’d recommend looking into some of the Greek meanings for hell, as I’ve taken the descriptions given to be mostly metaphorical (a place that holds every biblical description couldn’t physically exist, so if the words are meant to be descriptive, than metaphor is fair game). I’d also encourage you to read “The Great Divorce” by C.S. Lewis, where he speculated that the gates of hell are closed from the inside to keep God out.
This was a long read but unfortunately such short questions can have such long answers. Hope this helps alleviate (yet I strongly doubt solves) some of your objections.
Anon, the New Testament example is clear, on the day of Pentecost all who spoke in tongues where understood. In this case, the modern form … “simply making up words”, is by your own definition meaningless babbling. The hard scientific fact here is that is all that is going on. Tacking on words such as “spiritual” does nothing except confirm that it is a delusion, it does not describe anything measurable or real.
The other challenge you face is that the bible also claims .. 1 Cor 14.22 that “tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” … well I don’t believe, so in exactly what way does meaningless babbling become a sign for me? Now if somebody started speaking a language they had never been exposed to, I’d be impressed, but there is no evidence that has ever happened.
http://youtu.be/BOPVeZcZvc8
I’ll get together $100,000 given to any charity he likes if this Sid Roth can have a proper conversation with any 3 languages of my choice. Or is he just a good old-fashioned liar?
Sid Roth mentioned tongues in Acts 2. Yes what was the reason ? The law Moses old covenant brought down the 10 commandments what happened? 3000 died. The Holy Spirit comes New covenant 3000 saved!!!! The sign gifts were for a specific time for specific purpose. What was the reason for the sign gifts? The Jews needed a sign and the Greeks needed knowledge???
Sid says that Paul could heal anyone, also by hankie chiefs and so on. But 1 Corinthians says that tongues, prophesy and knowledge would cease. Well was it not ceasing ALREADY later in Pauls ministry??? We see that he could not heal his co-worker Epaphroditus,Phil 2: 25-27 … and Timothy (1 timothy 5:23) …..and Paul had to leave Trophimus behind as he had got sick 2 Timothy 4:20.
Is this not enough proof that the sign gifts were ceasing????
This is a great discussion, so thanks to Dave for starting it. This is of course a ‘skeptics’ website so most of the critics of ‘the gift of tongues’ would also not believe in ANYTHING supernatural, neither God nor gift. So I thank you non-believers for at least hearing the Pentecostal case although you think it nonsense. Critics must admit the Bible records in a number of passages the phenomenon of ‘speaking in tongues’. So can we at least agree that this phenomenon occurred among the first Christians? From the book of Acts and the letter to the Corinthians we can surmise that is was also common in the early churches. The next point to establish from the Bible is that there were various ‘Spiritual Gifts’ and they were not confined to church leaders. Yes there has been confusion as to the use and purpose of the gifts (obvious from the Corinthian letter) which has carried throughout the gospel age. I will make further comment when I have time.
You really should know…. i understand your concept but you don’t know what you are saying…without disrespect.
When you receive the Holy Spirit a lot of things wil cross your mind for you to disbelieve, thats how the mind works. Science now however does prove speaking in tongues. you can make anything scientific by massaging data but you cannot deny that when starting to speak in tongues you’re tongue starts to tighten and starts moving corruptly and then blows into another language. what about the people who come to revival fellowships before seeing or hearing anyone speaking in tongues, is showed the scriptures that receiving is essential :John 3:3 and explained that you need to start saying ‘Hallelujah’. they then come back and state the exact feelings and coincidents to the rest.. disprove that with science then get back to me.
You underestimate the power of satan.
He keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.
You’ve completely missed the point. Those who speak in tongues usually don’t understand what they are saying, nor do any specific “words” have to mean one thing.
Sure, I don’t understand it fully myself – But anyone can make up words and speak them – Just ask any child. But the fact is that it’s a spiritual connection, and the “words” used don’t relate to anything of any other language. Remember, it’s not something of this world.
Lastly, you’re welcome to your opinions – But don’t claim something to be “hard solid scientific proof that it is not real” when you don’t see the full picture.
Having received the gift of speaking in tongue had nothing to do with any conscious or subconscious thought from me at all such as fitting in etc. I had simply asked God to forgive me for rejecting Him out of my life due to anger. When I did this I experienced a sensation that could not be put into words so I won’t try.
I had never attended a Pentecostal church in my life.
The next Sunday I being Catholic attended Mass and was a bit troubled by the fact when I tried to say my prayers words came out I did not recognize and yet I felt very connected to God. it just did not make sense to me. Later on in the week. I had a dream about a church I had never attended or seen and when sharing my dream with a friend she said it looked like a Church in another town not too far away but in an area I had never traveled . I got directions from her and when I saw it it was the church in my dream and yes it was Pentecostal. I have attended there many years now and have come to understand my wonderful gift and the many others I have received.
I’m not saying all this happened overnight it has taken me years of reading my Bible to just begin to understand our Divine Creator and honestly I believe He is and always will be beyond complete human understanding. The Bible states we will know
all things when we stand before God. However I have found the Bible to be a personal means of communication to comfort and guide me in how to live my life . Why must people continually degrade the things they cannot prove or understand
The problem I see with the person who wrote this article is he/she gave up before he made the real connection or maybe like he/she said he discovered he was doing it to fit in..and I’m not judging here but gifts of the Holy Spirit are not done they are given.. I’m not saying I’m special or sinless I’m not. I’m just forever grateful for all that I have received from my loving Father His Son and the Holy Spirit..
oh PULEEEEZZZEEEE
I offer the exact opposite response as Papa Dougal. Good for you Carol!
Tongues in Acts 2. Yes what was the reason ? The law Moses old covenant brought down the 10 commandments what happened? 3000 died. The Holy Spirit comes New covenant 3000 saved!!!! The sign gifts were for a specific time for specific purpose. What was the reason for the sign gifts? The Jews needed a sign and the Greeks needed knowledge???
Paul could heal anyone, also by hankie chiefs and so on. But 1 Corinthians says that tongues, prophesy and knowledge would cease. Well was it not ceasing ALREADY later in Pauls ministry??? We see that he could not heal his co-worker Epaphroditus,Phil 2: 25-27 … and Timothy (1 timothy 5:23) …..and Paul had to leave Trophimus behind as he had got sick 2 Timothy 4:20.
Is this not enough proof that the sign gifts were ceasing????
QUESTION IF IT DID CEASE, WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY???? False counterfeit tongues? Evil Spirits? If you do not KNOW what you are doing then you could be cursing GOD?
God allowed tongues and HE also reprimanded tongues. WHY ? What did they have to do if they spoke in tongues ????? 1 Corinthians 12 let there be two or three, must be interpreted, woman not allowed to speak in tongues ?
I think you miss the point that this man is a specialist. ….also the disciples spoke only in known languages and not some unrecognisable muttering. If you people won’t except facts there really is no hope for you.
If you have never experienced it your really in the Dark about commenting on it. if the Holy Spirit has come upon you with the Gift of Unknown tongues, then you know the power is real and not imagined. You feel the actual physical, yes, Physical I said, presence of the Holy Spirit. It is not imagined, It is very real. Those who have it have power descending on them just as Jesus said, “you shall recieve Power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you”. This Power moves Mountains, It is the all Powerful Living God Living inside of you! making his presence known to his children. Enabling them to do all things as his Power strenghthens them. Of course you think it is ridiculous because you have never experienced it, But for those of us who have, and Continue in it, The Power Is Real! Not a figment of our imaginations! Peace!
People who heard the apostles speak recognized the language. They could understand it. It would be like a Chinese person babbling in French or Russian and someone who is a native speaker of French or Russian could understand it. Or a monolingual English speaker speaking perfect Japanese. If you are babbling in tongues and it is unrecognizable, than it isn’t the same as what is recorded in the Bible.
I’ve met people who have babbled in tongues and now, they’ve come to recognize that it was a delusion that their mind played on them. So next time someone claims to babble in tongues, record it and broadcast it. Someone, somewhere should recognize the words and be able to point out what it means. Preferably – a language that many people have a consensus is that language. What’s the point of babbling if you aren’t communicating something. If it’s not communicating something intelligible, it’s just bs that no different from a baby babbling and making noises. I find it odd that all those people haven’t yet babbled in a recognized language that a bystander would instantly recognize.
Don’t underestimate the ability to self-deceive and to do extraordinary deeds. There are hindus who can walk on burning coals. I’ve yet to see a christian be able to do that. I’ve seen buddhist monks who can do amazing physical acts. I have yet to see a christian do that. Instead, we get the cheap target version of extraordinary – i.e. the incoherent babbling of tongues. (You do realize that the ancient Sibyls – ancient Greek and Roman oracles – used to babble in tongues as well. Christians are just one in a long line of people who babble in tongues.)
Exactly, I perceive this ‘language of the angels’ as rather a stress relieving technique rather than an actual communication. The Frontal Lobe is shown to be inactive when performing tongues. That means that you are not thinking at all whatsoever. It’s easy to jib jab random sounds without using the noggin. It’s a bit complicated to recite real language, even when you have lived with it all your life. It takes thinking. I read some statistics by Evangelical Church websites that say that children who recite tongues are more emotionally stable. This is because every time they jib jab, they are releasing stress off their minds. There is a similar technique in which writers relieve writing stress by writing down whatever is at the top of their heads for five minutes and they end up with pretty ‘interesting’ results. I would rather not try to speak in Tongues because people would probably consider me retarded.
speaking in tongues builds you [ Jude 1:20]and its the only way god asking you and me to worship him, because he is a spirit and he is expecting from us ….
1]question if he did not gave us? how can he expect out of us ?
2] if you are not speaking in tongues you are not in the worship list of god?
3]well Eph 1:3 declares he blessed us with ALL spiritual gifts in the heavenly places in jesus…..
4]the gift of tongues is one of them in 9 spiritual gifts from god…..
5]when i got baptized i remember what the holy bible says in acts 2:38…..
brother don’t foolishly speak anything out of your mind …just obey the word of god and be blessed….
Hi do you take every thought captive? If tongues must interpreted in the church, would it be helping satan as he would now understand the secret heavenly language?
Did Paul speak more earthly or heavenly languages?
Lawless deception, Pentecostals teach you how to let go of yourself and babble, the true Holy Spirit was real languages that’s a miracle and of value. Tongues that can be duplicated as babble within 20 minutes is not a miracle, true miracles cannot be duplicated. All denominations are evil and lawless, the church in the wilderness is the true church Jewish Christianity
Hi Is Jude 1:20 refer to speaking in tongues?
Eph 1:3 Do we all have all the gifts?
If the bible says NOT all speak in tongues, are you more blessed than me as you can build up yourself, you can worship God the way he wants it?